L1 premises

[flying chippy]

Hey y'all,
I'd be gratefull for a little direction. Looking to apply for an L1. It's requirements are to have business premises. Thing is, being an internet business we don't need the expense of premises until things really get going. .

Any suggestions to overcome this dilema???

thanks:)

answers to the above only would be appreciated & not lots of other stuff.

[peter gold]

I posted the answer If you dont want to read the rules about the L-1 visa that is up to you and good luck with your application

[telco]

There is no way around it, I'm afraid.

You have to have a business premises. I am in telecoms and like you had the same arguement that in this industry home working and technology go hand in hand. That fell on deaf ears, and I took a serviced office with a personal receptionist handling our calls. Even if it sits empty most of the time, as we are on the road, or working remotley. It served the need for the box to be ticked as complete.

Jim

[flying chippy]

I posted the answer If you dont want to read the rules about the L-1 visa that is up to you and good luck with your application

many thanks for your good wishes. like most things in life, you can bend the rules a little...:naughty: :D

[telco]

many thanks for your good wishes. like most things in life, you can bend the rules a little...:naughty: :D

You can for sure, but not many bent rules get past USCIS..... the danger being they may pass it once, but it will come up again in renewal, and there is the chance they will see it the second or third time etc.....

Playing with your visa's future for the sake of a few hundred dollars a month is not worth it. USCIS want you to show you are a serious business, and the office issue should not be a concern, regardless if you use it or not. They see it that a serious L1 supporting business would not blink at leasing an office for staff, sales or advertisement purposes.

[chris]

The L visa is about having a business in your 'home' country and then opening a new or expanded business in the US. If you have an internet business, it is by virtue a 'virtual' business with no specific location anywhere, other than on a computer. How can you confirm to the State Dept or USCIS that if your virtual business was running in the US, the virtual business in the UK ( if that is the case) is still running there??
I'm on E2, so no expert on L visas, but I do appreciate that 21st century internet based virtual businesses do not fit well into the 20th century traditional business concept that the Immigration Authorities work by.
Whether it's E or L, the bottom line is that the US expects you to create jobs for USC's. That can't happen in a 'virtual' world!

[InnVic]

many thanks for your good wishes. like most things in life, you can bend the rules a little...:naughty: :D

sorry but if your trying to "bend the rules" now then your in for a rude awakening. The only folk that can bend the rules are those administering them - and trust me they will not be bent in your favor.

[chris]

In years past we had the Property Manager 'bending the rules' and the infamous 12 denials all at one time. That clouded decisions by London for prospective Prop Managers for years. When people used to ask why was London tougher than elsewhere, it was largely because of people trying to bend the rules. In the end Brits paid the price.

[peter gold]

Great posts tell it as it is not how the posters want it to be!

[McSporran]

Great posts everyone...FlyingChippy, I think you need to take a long hard look at your business plan..if you're not careful, I can see USCIS saying to you that your vitual business can certainly be run from anywhere (in your eyes this means can be home based), in their eye they could well tell you that it can indeed be run from home....your home in the UK....and therefore you have no need at all for the L visa.

Q- Where are your employees based from in the UK - if from their homes, then I'm afraid the same could be argued.

I wish you all the best, but I'm afraid I'm with Chris, in that Brits "bending rules" is what caused all the hassle in the first place for Brits applying legitimately for visas.

[InnVic]

yup trying to screw the system just messes it up for everyone.

[Carl]

Flying Chippy

get yourself a cheap office, employ some staff, you must have a general manager, a supervisor and some regular staff if you want to have a chance of getting a renewal as this is also a big part of a L1, after one year apply for a green card. Then once you have that you can run your business the way you want to. too many people put the business before the immigration issues. get your visa, get your greencardthen run your business your way.

Carl.

[hollaka79]

Dont normally get involved but Im with you here Chris!

:angel:



In years past we had the Property Manager 'bending the rules' and the infamous 12 denials all at one time. That clouded decisions by London for prospective Prop Managers for years. When people used to ask why was London tougher than elsewhere, it was largely because of people trying to bend the rules. In the end Brits paid the price.

[lorraine]

Flying Chippy

get yourself a cheap office, employ some staff, you must have a general manager, a supervisor and some regular staff if you want to have a chance of getting a renewal as this is also a big part of a L1, after one year apply for a green card. Then once you have that you can run your business the way you want to. too many people put the business before the immigration issues. get your visa, get your greencardthen run your business your way.

Carl.

Good advice. I know a couple who have their green card. They have an internet business. They opened a small office, employed a few staff after 1st renewal put in for the green card and got it. Good luck......

[lxh11]

In years past we had the Property Manager 'bending the rules' and the infamous 12 denials all at one time. That clouded decisions by London for prospective Prop Managers for years. When people used to ask why was London tougher than elsewhere, it was largely because of people trying to bend the rules. In the end Brits paid the price.

Back in the early 1990's, 192 was filled with Brits in the pubs, all boasting how they screwed the system and bent the rules. In 1994 there was a huge round up of Brits and loads were deported.

I remember one time I was at the INS (then located on Tradeport), several Brits in front of me, were called to the window, then told to walk throught the double doors and out the back door, to a waiting van that would drive them over the tarmac for the next flight out!!!

[flying chippy]

Hey y'all,
I'd be gratefull for a little direction. Looking to apply for an L1. It's requirements are to have business premises. Thing is, being an internet business we don't need the expense of premises until things really get going. .

Any suggestions to overcome this dilema???

thanks:)

answers to the above only would be appreciated & not lots of other stuff.

The UK office started in humble beginings (home) we now have two warehouses plus offices. turn over is in ex of £500k & employ 6 staff. We wanted to do the same in US to achieve the same results, rather than start off with high initial start up costs. I not out to commit major fraud, just start small & build up..... like most good busineses, "walk before you can run.".
Maybe i didnt fully explain, or maybe you just like to put everyone down:td:

thanks to "Telco" who, from the many posts actually answered my question:tu:

[chris]

FC,
I don't think anyone on here set out to put anyone down. It was yourself who raised the issue of bending rules.
I think the answers to your dilemma have been clear all along. You can't beat the system. As Carl suggested, put the immigration rules first, then the business, get your GC and then run your business as you would like. The system prefers you to have premises and staff, simple as that.
There is no put down in that.

[peter gold]

Maybe i didnt fully explain, or maybe you just like to put everyone down
We wish you luck but there is no need for this type of comment when everyone is only trying to help.
Many posters have a lot of experience with the US authorities who are nothing like the UK civil servants

[Susie]

Hey y'all,
I'd be gratefull for a little direction. Looking to apply for an L1. It's requirements are to have business premises. Thing is, being an internet business we don't need the expense of premises until things really get going. .

Any suggestions to overcome this dilema???

thanks:)

answers to the above only would be appreciated & not lots of other stuff.

Would it not be possible for you to rent office space within an office? If so send me a pm as I might know someone who would be willing to share the costs

[Kirstie]

FC
You will need to show some kind of substance to the business. Have you considered an executive office type of environment? That was you only need to rent 1 office and the fees would share the cost of a receptionist etc.

[McSporran]

I'm done...good luck, good bye.

[OrlandoVillas]

We came over on L1 initially. We had (still have) a UK home based Internet business, and opened a US home based business. This is entirely web based with no office or staff.

In our business plan when we applied for the L1 initially, we said we'd look at opening a US based office within a year, and planned to take on a staff member (this was just to comply with the L1 requirements, we had no need for an office or a staff member).

When it come to renewal 1 year later we hadn't taken up an office nor had we taken on a staff member as we could not justify it. Nor did we have a set of accounts by that time. We submitted a very basic renewal (i.e. just the basic application form with no supporting documents). I included a covering letter to say we do not have accounts as yet, and that we didn't want to risk money on an office lease until we knew whether we had the renewal or not. I also said we were waiting until after the renewal before taking on staff. Our renewal was approved.

I think the key thing is to be 100% up front and not try to pull the wool over their eyes.

Also, just because it worked for me doesn't mean it will work for you. It is probably a big risk.

Friends of ours here in Florida came over on L1 just before us. They also had a web based business with no staff. They put themselves down as the only directors (which was true) and said their UK business will carry on trading even with them in Florida since it is web based. They got their visa and also their renewal, again with no premises or staff.

[davidmartin_uk]

Well this makes the whole visa thing a joke!!!!

What about the people with real business that have been on the press recently working all hrs god gave trying to juggle staff and premises and make ends meet

So now you can get a visa and renewal WITH NO PREMISES, NO STAFF AND NO INCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we should all start trading on e bay and forget our proper biz!!!

Dave

[peter gold]

I follow McSporran on this as well

[OrlandoVillas]

I didn't say there was no income. There is (and was then) plenty of income, which seemed to be the important factor. I think with no income it would be pointless to even try.

I really think it's down to who reviews the individual case, rather than any fixed policy. I think some of the USCIS staff must have a better grasp of the way things are going for a lot of companies, being able to run completely online in an automated way. All that changed coming over here is where the tax is paid to, so from the US point of view they are better off as I am paying US taxes and spending money in the US even though not employing staff or renting office space.

Well this makes the whole visa thing a joke!!!!

What about the people with real business that have been on the press recently working all hrs god gave trying to juggle staff and premises and make ends meet

So now you can get a visa and renewal WITH NO PREMISES, NO STAFF AND NO INCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we should all start trading on e bay and forget our proper biz!!!

Dave

[maddy]

Well this makes the whole visa thing a joke!!!!

What about the people with real business that have been on the press recently working all hrs god gave trying to juggle staff and premises and make ends meet


Dave

I completely agree with you David. It has taken my husband and I twelve years to get from original Green Card application to US Citizenship by going "by the book". One of my daughters also went "by the book" for her original E2 visa application and was REFUSED. (turnover a million dolllars plus, employing 6 US citizens plus 10 subcontractors, two physical premises) Am I bitter? You bet :mad:

[InnVic]

theres always some smart Alec that tries to find a way 'around" the system which either screws it up for everyone else, (tightening of the rules) and/or leads others to ultimate disappointment by making them to erroneously believe that they can bend the rules and get Green cards too. Its hard enough to understand visa regulations and guideleines without unhelpful and misleading posts like this.

[telco]

theres always some smart Alec that tries to find a way 'around" the system which either screws it up for everyone else, (tightening of the rules) and/or leads others to ultimate disappointment by making them to erroneously believe that they can bend the rules and get Green cards too. Its hard enough to understand visa regulations and guideleines without unhelpful and misleading posts like this.

I don't think the post is misleading. It is showing another angle for another business. IT especially is like this. A big ISP, may have lots of equipment installed at a co-location site, but needs only home based workers to take orders, support and run the operation. These co-location facilities for servers etc... are not hospitable enviroments for staff. Therefore a hosting company with a few million in turnover, may not require an office for sales/ support staff. So you could see it as thinking outside the box, not a means to get around the system.
Of course I am not saying USCIS will always see it that way, but if they do know what the company does, it should be within their realm to allow for it.
However, the basis should always be generating employemnt whilst on the visa, so how a company gets through with no employees baffles me.

[davidmartin_uk]

You say at your first renewal that you could not justify taking on a member of staff so that means you didn't have the income!!

If you are dealing with USCIS I also presume you are landlocked. Good luck to you if you have 'got away with it' but don't go bragging on forums like this how easy it all is. You are going to suck in a lot of in experienced new people to believing the same. I would like to bet that on your next renewal in London they will not look kindly on your antics.

Dave

[InnVic]

I don't think the post is misleading. It is showing another angle for another business. IT especially is like this. A big ISP, may have lots of equipment installed at a co-location site, but needs only home based workers to take orders, support and run the operation. These co-location facilities for servers etc... are not hospitable enviroments for staff. Therefore a hosting company with a few million in turnover, may not require an office for sales/ support staff. So you could see it as thinking outside the box, not a means to get around the system.
Of course I am not saying USCIS will always see it that way, but if they do know what the company does, it should be within their realm to allow for it.
However, the basis should always be generating employemnt whilst on the visa, so how a company gets through with no employees baffles me.

IT IS MISLEADING - the requirements (from the US embassy website read:

An L-1 visa is also the appropriate visa classification for a qualified employee of an international company who is coming to the United States to establish a parent, branch, affiliate or subsidiary in the United States, i.e. commence business. When filing the petition, the international company will be required to show that sufficient physical premises to house the new office have been secured and that within one year of the approval of the petition, the intended U.S. operation will support an executive or managerial position.

So how come NO premises and NO managerial position (because how can you manage if you have no subordinates?) qualifies for a visa renewal? And this is specific - not vague and subject to interpretation like some other visa we could mention!

I realise that not all businesses need premises or staff - but if you expect to qualify for L1 visa this is precisely what the US requires. Someone appears to have been very fortunate and been granted a renewal while in breach of these conditions - I doubt anyone else would be so lucky. It is wrong to allow new folk to believe that you can buck the system and get away with it thats why people are critical of this post.

[Susie]

I feel a lot to do with whether you get the visa or not depends on the consulate office at the interview. I suspect if he or she has had a bad day the odds of getting a visa could well be reduced

[OrlandoVillas]

I posted exactly what happend and did not bend any rules in my case. If I was bending rules I would not have been up front with the information I gave to the USCIS. I told them we have no staff (unlike some that will take on staff and an office just before renewal to try to make it look like they comply - that's rule bending).

As per my post, I stress that you should always be up front with the USCIS and never try to hide anything. Honesty is the best policy. I went out of my way to be totally honest as I'd rather have not got the renewal than bend any rules and get a renewal based on false or misleading information.

Also in my post above I did say that it was probably a big risk and just because I got a renewal doesn't mean someone else necessarily will. I wouldn't recommend you do the same unless you are also very profitable.

Just because we can not justify staff doesn't mean we are not making enough income to do so, but simply means that our business does not need staff to function since it is an online business. Everything is automated in our business and it seems the USCIS (in my case) understood that. We did have some ideas in our business plan that might need staff in the future which I pointed out to the USCIS on the renewal, saying we were waiting to see if our Visa's were newed first.

The point I was trying to make in my post is that it looks to me like the USCIS may be starting to appreciate that modern businesses do not necessarily need physical premises and staff to function very profitably, and it is still a benefit to the USA to have such business in the country since taxes will be paid and money spent in the USA.

I only know 1 other family here on L1 and they are in a similar situation - no staff and no premises (and no staff in the UK, compared to me who still has a director in the UK), so I thought people might be interested to hear another angle.

I'm struggling a bit to see why some people are upset at my post - I'm not saying you should all apply and renew on the same basis as me, as it is a risk! I also wasn't trying to upset those of you that are having a hard time with renewals as I know how difficult and stressful it can be and many people are declined with business with several staff and premises.

To answer your other point; we do now have our green cards, although not through the business, as my wife won the Green Card Lottery. It is very possible, as suggested above that had we not done so, and had to go back to London to renew our visa's that they would not have been granted.

Also, in terms of the premises and managerial position policy you quoted above, maybe they sometimes interpret it as:

"Sufficient physical premises to house the new office" = a Home Office is sufficient as only a PC and a desk is required for an online business.

Maybe they see the "..operation will support an executive or managerial position" clause as applicable since I am still an executive / manager as the business has to be managed even though there are no staff to manage.

Again, this is only my take on it, as for whatever reason in my case and the case of our friends on L1, the USCIS were happy to approve and renew.

[telco]

IT IS MISLEADING - the requirements (from the US embassy website read:

An L-1 visa is also the appropriate visa classification for a qualified employee of an international company who is coming to the United States to establish a parent, branch, affiliate or subsidiary in the United States, i.e. commence business. When filing the petition, the international company will be required to show that sufficient physical premises to house the new office have been secured and that within one year of the approval of the petition, the intended U.S. operation will support an executive or managerial position.

So how come NO premises and NO managerial position (because how can you manage if you have no subordinates?) qualifies for a visa renewal? And this is specific - not vague and subject to interpretation like some other visa we could mention!

I realise that not all businesses need premises or staff - but if you expect to qualify for L1 visa this is precisely what the US requires. Someone appears to have been very fortunate and been granted a renewal while in breach of these conditions - I doubt anyone else would be so lucky. It is wrong to allow new folk to believe that you can buck the system and get away with it thats why people are critical of this post.

Because times change, and businesses change. This guideline is like so many others very broad. I agree they should be used, but we all know that different times, and the advent of home based technology changes this.
Take for example that the USA is on it's "Green" drive and want people to use cars less. How do they do that? Work from home. What does that mean? It means that companies will occupy less space in office type enviroments.
I suspect what we are seeing is some forward thinking from USCIS (it does not happen often). But it this case it obviously did.
No one here is saying right or wrong, that is up to USCIS. It is just what happened to Orlandovillas. If they made it work, good for them. Did I try it for my L1..No, but could have if I wanted, but preferred to waste $5K a year on a space I did not need. (But I do rent 5000 sq feet for my equipment around the USA.)

Unfortunately it shows you can "buck" or change the system. Newbies need to know all the angles surely?
It's like the law. When a judge makes a ruling, he / she in effect creates a precedence for other lawyers to use at a later date. Orlandovillas has done such a thing here.

[chris]

Telco,
I don't disagree with you that the world of work has changed significantly in recent years with technology developments BUT you have to recognize and accept that the State Dept (Embassy) has a very distinct 'traditional' view of work. It sees it taking place in commercial premises with employees. For a Visa to be issued against the current Immigration Laws and the guidelines that support it, we must fit in the little boxes, not the other way round. The reason the US wants us here and allows us in is to develop commercial businesses that employ people (preferably their won USC's).
Anyone who tries to 'buck' the system is not getting that concept and in line for a big shock sometime in the future.
I repeat what Carl said in an earlier post. Run you business according to the immigration rules, get your GC and then run it how you want. That seems to make perfect sense to me. And why does it make sense to Carl? Because he did just that and got his GC. You cannot beat that outcome can you?

[telco]

Telco,
I don't disagree with you that the world of work has changed significantly in recent years with technology developments BUT you have to recognize and accept that the State Dept (Embassy) has a very distinct 'traditional' view of work. It sees it taking place in commercial premises with employees. For a Visa to be issued against the current Immigration Laws and the guidelines that support it, we must fit in the little boxes, not the other way round. The reason the US wants us here and allows us in is to develop commercial businesses that employ people (preferably their won USC's).
Anyone who tries to 'buck' the system is not getting that concept and in line for a big shock sometime in the future.
I repeat what Carl said in an earlier post. Run you business according to the immigration rules, get your GC and then run it how you want. That seems to make perfect sense to me. And why does it make sense to Carl? Because he did just that and got his GC. You cannot beat that outcome can you?

Sure I agree with what you say, and Carl et al.
But I do think we are seeing a change at USCIS for this type of business. Sure it has no premises, but in most cases it can still employee people, pay taxes etc.......
I just think we should not po-po it just because someone or 2 has done it.

[InnVic]

I just think we should not po-po it just because someone or 2 has done it.

I don't think we're poo pooing it because someone has done it in the past and been lucky. The problem with isolated cases like this is that other wannabe's may invest time money and hope (and expect) the USCIS to apply similar discretion but then come face to face with some jobsworth who enforces the regulations as written. When it comes to wanting the Florida "dream" people are willing to believe what they want to hear. If you approach US visas as you would buying a scratch card then by all means run your business the way you want and hope they're in a good mood - however if you want a better than average chance of being able to stay then you've got to suck it up, comply and take it as written.

[Steve in clermont]

Id just like to add that i dont have premises for my business , but i do have full time and part time employees.
I think people are getting a little bemused at this company having no employees and no premises and recieving an L1 renewal.
The first year L1 renewal is probably the least stringent of all visa renewals, BUT they will expect you to grow the business.They will be looking at your next renewal to see that you have followed the busniss plan outlining a premises and potential employee as you have told them you would be doing. A second renewal without premises and employees is more likely to be rejected.
Those on E2 have a much harder time in gaining visas and renewals right from the off, but L visas become harder to please with each renewal.

[Steve in clermont]

Some people should get back in their pram before the green eyed monster gobbles em up.
The guy beat the odds , by luck or whatever, cant we just be pleased for him.

[telco]

Some people should get back in their pram before the green eyed monster gobbles em up.
The guy beat the odds , by luck or whatever, cant we just be pleased for him.

And I dont think he / she is the only one to have done so.

[chris]

I think this thread is now going round in circles. It is clear that some people have been approved for a visa renewal which on the face of it does not meet published immigration criteria. That only confirms once again, the whole thing is a lottery or gamble.
Like a gamble you may have a winning streek and feel you can beat the odds and then you lose the lot. The house always wins in the end.
I'm done.

[flying chippy]

I appreciate everyone sharing their knowledge & experiences. I've taken on board those constructive criticisms & will act accordingly.
thank you..........