Would this Work?

[CAbound2010]

Hi everyone,:)
I had a thought, initially we thought of the E-2 route, now looking more probable that it will be L1.
One thing I dont like is the 1 year, visa issue a for New office.
But I am aware that if you have an office running in the United States, then you as the L1 holder can apply for 2/3 years.
So how would this work and thats even if it could?:confused:
1) Form a corporation in the United States
2) pay US taxes on that corporation in the united states.
Then when 'we' (hubs and kids) are ready to make the move over to cali.
Would then have issued a 3 year visa INSTEAD of a 1 year, because our business in the states has been running for x y z.....??

Or am I barking totally up the wrong tree, :) or trying to be smart and make ways where there isnt :confused:
Have any of you ever done this? or do you know anybody that has done it this way?
For obvious reasons a 2/3 year L1 would be better than a year:)
I would really appreciate any advice/help you guys could offer.

[mr&mrssunshine]

i had the same thoughts, i THINK the US office has to be running for over a year to count (I may well be wrong) so it depends on your timescales

you can of course start the US company in advance of applying for the L1 if you have someone to run it for you

[Bayfield]

I guess if you has somebody on board locally who could do the set up, employ staff, get the business going etc then it could work.

[Carl]

That is correct, but you also could go straight for a Green card. you would apply for the I-140 and do the I-485s at consular processing. Although you would need strong businesses at both ends.

Carl.

[Ed Tha Brit]

Hi CAbound2010,

I know it sounds daft but, you do have a company in the UK already dont you?

You will have to run your Company/Corporation here in the USA for at least a year to get a renewal on an L1.

Have a nice Day

Ed Tha Brit

[Tina]

Hi CAbound2010,

I know it sounds daft but, you do have a company in the UK already dont you?

That was going to be my question too. You don't mention if you do indeed have a UK company operational.

I know someone who is just starting out on the L1 route. They have a UK business and are doing a start-up here, employing a General Manager to run it until such time as they can (hopefully) get an L1 and move over here. They will be keeping on their UK business, as per the requirements for L1 renewal.

Good luck with it.......seems like a minefield, but worth it if you can come out the other side unscathed :)

[mr&mrssunshine]

ETB I think yes CAbound does have a company. I think you may have slightly missed CABs point.
Yes you get renewal after a year UNLESS the US side is an ESTABLISHED company and then you can go 3 years before renewing.
I think what CAB is saying is can they set this US company up themselves -stay in the Uk and then apply for the 3 year L1 not the 1 year L1.
I THINK that the US company has to have been running for at least a year for it to qualify as being acceptable for the initial 3 year L1.
I hope i have a) explained it right and b) got the time spans right.

Carl I am not sure if you are correct about going straight to the GC but I think it shortens the process (hope you are right though).

I think CAB is trying to get more time before the dreaded renewal is needed so they have more space to get a GC ???

[CAbound2010]

thanks to everyone for replying :)
It honestly really does help, when you are speaking to REAL people that have either experienced visas/renewals/ or are going to.
I know attorneys can help etc, but they will never understand, because they have never been in the situation that most of us are put through. (unless they are immigrant attorneys:))

Ok yes we have a uk company and we will want to keep this running, for the whole process.
to clarify, yes mrmrssunshine, that is exactly what i am trying to do.
have more time, so that when we apply for the L1 ourselves, because the US company has already been established this would hopefully give us a 3 year L1 as opposed to the 1 year.

Carl, you mentioned that we could apply straight away for green card and I have read this somewhere before, although I cant remember where?
Would you mind talking me through this process?
because also somewhere i have read, is that a green card is prospective in nature, which means it is based on what you are 'going to do' not what you are doing now?
so are you saying that I could form a corporation in Cali,
pay taxes etc etc,
then submit a green card application? from the UK?
Sorry for all the questions, but your earlier comment has now given me something else to think about:confused:

[peter gold]

I suggest you contact Jonathon Capp who is based in California and who was previously a British Barrister an dnow is an immigration attorney whom I would recommend.
I have sent his details in a pm

[davidmartin_uk]

The theory sounds great but I cannot see how the practicalities are going to work. How are you going to set up your new business when you are not here? Your going to get away with one visit on VWP to get things going but 90 days later you have to go home and the rule of thumb with VWP is spend the same time out of the country as in. How are you going to run a business and make it successful with staff you don’t know and market you don’t know? You may think you have employed the most wonderful staff but its not their money or visa. They get paid regardless of how the business does or grows and you will have never seen them work.

I run a business remotely that I spent two years in the USA setting up with staff that we have had long term. That is difficult enough

A brand new business with a brand new absentee owner is never going to work.

Dave

[Carl]

You are right david.
However dont forget the system was set up for big corporations. It says you can, but your curcumstances have to be right. as you said.

Carl.

[Tina]

A brand new business with a brand new absentee owner is never going to work.

Dave

I can see your point, but everyone has different personal circumstances. Depending on who the GM is can/will make all the difference for the absentee owner don't you think? Also depends on how long the owner will be absent, could be weeks, could be months. Several factors will determine the difference between success and failure.

[davidmartin_uk]

They are talking about running the US business and making it ‘established’ in the eyes of an L1. This is going to be at least a year surely? Maybe even more? My point is if you are out here on VWP for 3 months setting up, maybe opening how do you know if GM is any good. And if they are not are you going to get in on VWP a couple of months later to sort it all out. Maybe, maybe not.

Absentee owners can work but not with a start up in my view. The staff however good you thin they are can wreck your business and your investment within a couple of months, poor service, stealing from you, lazy etc etc just not running the business like you would. You have got to be there to get the business going as you want it, not how an employee wants it.

Dave

[Carl]

I suppose if you had afamily memeber or a very good friend as your GM then it could work, as I said it all depends on the circumstances.

It may well not work for some, but could for others.

Carl.

[Tina]

Maybe the OP could make it work if they were going into a partnership with somebody already in CA who would be the GM but the OP holds the majority share? That way, they would have trust in their GM. Maybe?

[24/7]

Are you allowed to set up or investigate companies whilst on the VWP?

Should they not hold a B2 which is another complication altogether?

[CAbound2010]

Thanks everybody,
Im just glad Im reading the good points as well as the bad ones!
Because it really helps to see it from all perspectives or both sides of the coin and things sometimes you, think you have thought of things and someone will say x y z.... then its not such a great idea after all.
So I really appreciate all comments, which ultimately helps us, decide the best way for us to do this and not to mention the most realistic:)

Bottom line I was probably trying to be a bit smart, If everyone had the idea i thought of, then everyone would be smelling of roses and I know, its not like that at all. :)

I just want to know, what person thought a year to establish a new business was long enough? Some of the biggest companies, took longer than a year to establish thats for sure. Even say richard branson, it took him 8 years to finally make money:confused:

[Tina]

I just want to know, what person thought a year to establish a new business was long enough?

I think those comments were made because of the L1 renewal criteria.

[neilsuzy]

Are you allowed to set up or investigate companies whilst on the VWP?

Should they not hold a B2 which is another complication altogether?

See following link http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_new/visa/niv/e.html

Last paragraph, proper use of B1/B2 & visa waiver.

[CAbound2010]

tbh
I wouldnt really apply for a B1, because lots of things can really be done these days courtesy of the internet.
we could have a short list of 'possible offices' say 3-4 but then I was looking at california enterprize zones, which has helped us more or less narrow down where our office would be, it has to be in East LA, Hollywood or long beach, to be able to benefit from various taxes breaks etc, (as those are designated in southern california) they are offering at the moment. And lets face it, we can look at those few offices in a matter of days. Not months.
Form a corporation is pretty straight forward, but as for the employees etc, that would be the tough part!
We was thinking of some kind of profit share if we decided to employ a manager whilst we were absent. That way, he or she isnt just working for a wage, but working towards company profit share. Or a percentage of the company etc.
It could only be ....but at least they would want to work harder for not only their wage, but a percentage of the company?
Again these are just ideas we have been considering.

[Tina]

We was thinking of some kind of profit share if we decided to employ a manager whilst we were absent. That way, he or she isnt just working for a wage, but working towards company profit share. Or a percentage of the company etc.
It could only be ....but at least they would want to work harder for not only their wage, but a percentage of the company?

Smart idea IMO. But make sure you get the share % right for the purposes of renewal.

[dip your toe]

Two seperate issues.

A) Will it fly for visa purposes?

Haven't a clue.

B) Will a start up business work without the owners prescence?

You're setting yourself up for a mangerial nightmare, regardless of profit sharing incentives.

****

Would it not be better to have an E2 start up and then when established merge the businesses into an L1 application? Don't know if you can do that. Probably not.

I've often wondered if I could start up a UK subsidary from my existing E2 business and then apply for an L1.

[InnVic]

Would it not be better to have an E2 start up and then when established merge the businesses into an L1 application? Don't know if you can do that. Probably not.

.

Thats actually a great idea - and would probably fly - hasn't someone on here done that?

[CAbound2010]

Smart idea IMO. But make sure you get the share % right for the purposes of renewal.

Hi tina,
thank you, is this because both sides ie uk/us have to be exactly the same or something like that:confused:

[CAbound2010]

Two seperate issues.

Would it not be better to have an E2 start up and then when established merge the businesses into an L1 application? Don't know if you can do that. Probably not.


Hi dyt,
yes that is a great idea!
couple of questions, though
I thought the E2 had to have start up costs of say 150,000 us dollars, but with our business, (books & electronics) we wouldnt need anywhere near that.
We could do 'it' on less than that, but i suppose nobody has their cake.
It means that way we have longer. Is it 2 years on first issue or 5 for E2?
I definately know this CAN be done ie change from the E visa to an L visa, there was a couple I read about (again) and they went this very route.
They set up a UK business, had their friends run this business, from the Uk, i think just the very basics, to meet the requirement of the L1, then changed to an L1. I will try and find where ive read this.
god ive done more reading lately then Ive ever done:)

[Tina]

Hi tina,
thank you, is this because both sides ie uk/us have to be exactly the same or something like that:confused:

Something like that but I'm no expert. I remember reading JulieC's experience of getting refused at renewal on a technicality, something to do with the share not being the same as the UK company. You can probably find her info about it if you do a search.

[mr&mrssunshine]

Hi tina,
thank you, is this because both sides ie uk/us have to be exactly the same or something like that:confused:


doesnt the Uk company have to own a min of 51% ???

[mr&mrssunshine]

be wary of the B route- I am sure i ahve read somwhere of someone who used the B route to visit whilst he/she was establishing a business etc and was denied entry as his visit was deemed to have 'intent to stay'. he then couldnt use the VWP as he had been dneied entry and had his B cancelled !! so in trying to do things the right way he got banned !!!

the VWP is possibly the eaieer way BUT as people have said , too many/too long visits will possibly raise the red flags.

damned if you do damned if you dont

I looked at these ways and it scared me............

[JulieC]

doesnt the Uk company have to own a min of 51% ???

Two ways of doing L1.
1. UK company owns a min of 51 percent of US company.
or
2. Two separate affiliated companies but the shareholding in the UK and US is substantially the same. Substantially means effectively the same. We were denied renewal on this because the manager in the US was given a small shareholding as an incentive and was not a shareholder in the UK.
1 is easier immigration wise but 2 was picked in our case because of tax reasons!!!! Big mistake.

[CAbound2010]

Two ways of doing L1.
1. UK company owns a min of 51 percent of US company.
or
2. Two separate affiliated companies but the shareholding in the UK and US is substantially the same. Substantially means effectively the same. We were denied renewal on this because the manager in the US was given a small shareholding as an incentive and was not a shareholder in the UK.
1 is easier immigration wise but 2 was picked in our case because of tax reasons!!!! Big mistake.

:(:mad:
that is just crazy!

[Ed Tha Brit]

:(:mad:
that is just crazy!

Once again Richard Branson had to give 75% shares of his Company away to a US directors if he wanted to start cheap airline in the USA?

It never happened but could of been imposed!

Eh they want thier penny and the bun over here!

Have a nice Day

Ed Tha Brit

[Carl]

You can also have just the same share holders on both companies, Example. a UK partnership with you and your partner owning 50/50 and the same share holding in the U.S. The UK business doesnt have to own the U.S. Business as long as it has a qualifying relationship, i.e. ownership. you just have to word your application right.

Carl.

[davidmartin_uk]

Let me jot down some experiences form running a business remotely. This is what happens in rural NH.

I have had two business here, We ran one form another town and we took on 3 long term established staff. They worked against us from day one even though we didn’t change anything. When we broached the idea of a twice yearly profit bonus if they sold more is was treated with the utmost suspicion. In the end one member of staff that had been there 3 years left because we asked her to move the CD player and tidy up the till area. The manager of 8 years actually refused to cancel an order and told us she wouldn’t do it via e mail and I sacked here. Both thought the store was theirs and that they were completely indispensable.

Of course as owners we then have to find and train up new staff. Not to bad in the next town, more difficult 3000 miles away!!

Our other business is a busy Gas station convenience store. Open long house so lots of staff plus manager and assistant manger. We are now living in the UK. Came over here last week to check things up and of course all the attention to detail that as owners we put in has gone. Lots of things that we gave express instructions to do or not to do are not followed though. ATM was broken for 3 weeks nobody bothered to fix it. Diesel sign where you put the price of fuel broke so it looked like we didn’t sell diesel. It took me 5 mins to fix it!!

Its easy to say fire the manager but it would take at least 3-4 weeks to train up someone else and they could be just as bad. So even a business that we have run ourselves is very difficult to run when you are not there. No effort had been made to even clean the place up when they knew we were coming over!!!!

We are now putting an inspection rota in place with an independent person (thatb we are paying) to check up that our staff who we pay with our money are doing their job!!!!!

I would say that we probably loose at least 10% revenue when we are not there. Maybe more.

Have Tried a profit bonus. Trouble is round here they expect it even when they don’t meet their targets!! Don’t do it anymore. It made no difference.

Finding staff round here that are honest don’t take sick days and proactive is almost impossible. We have the first two honest and relaible but they just don’t go that extra inch. I will say ‘If this was your business and your money would you do what you just did’ Of course they answer ‘No’ but as soon as we are not there it all goes back to what it was before.

I can’t put this strongly enough. IMHO a new business with an absentee owner from the start where with the ambiguity of VWP you can’t even come over in an emergency without the possibility of you not being allowed into the USA will not work. In my time here I have not really come across a good America member of staff.

Dave

[Bayfield]

We have gone through a few staff but the ones we have now I am pretty happy with.

I doubt it would be different in the UK.

VWP, well it is for visitors, relying on it come and sort out your business in the US sounds well outside the remit. Some people might get away with it, some may not.

[mr&mrssunshine]

David
i dont know if it would help, we have relatives in NH. they might be willing/able to look in at your business on the quiet occasionally and let you know whats going on. if thats of any interest PM me

[davidmartin_uk]

As long as you are not being paid by a US company you can use VWP for business. The nature of buisness is very ambigous -

quote from dep state web site

"Travelers coming to the U.S. for tourism or business for 90 days or less from qualified countries may be eligible to visit the U.S. without a visa if they meet the visa waiver program requirements."

Dave

[davidmartin_uk]

Mr & Mrs Sunshine. Thanks for kind offer. I have tried that with friends here in town but it doesn't really work. You need to pay someone to do it properly. Somebody who has had a business themselves.

Dave

[mr&mrssunshine]

thats ok, these people do have a business but like many its kind of slow right now. he is aUS Citizen she (wifes aunt) a Brit (bolshie northern type -you know the ones !!!!! :-)

[Bayfield]

As long as you are not being paid by a US company you can use VWP for business. The nature of buisness is very ambigous -

quote from dep state web site

"Travelers coming to the U.S. for tourism or business for 90 days or less from qualified countries may be eligible to visit the U.S. without a visa if they meet the visa waiver program requirements."

Dave

You can do business you can not work.

It does not mater who pays you, or if you are paid at all.

So you could for example meet with your managers on the VWP, but you could not undertake their jobs.

To run a small business on the VWP, I just would not want to try and go there.

[davidmartin_uk]

I agree

Thats what I was trying to get over the the original poster. Setting up a new business and running it remotely for the first year or two is never going to work.

Dave

[CAbound2010]

I agree

Thats what I was trying to get over the the original poster. Setting up a new business and running it remotely for the first year or two is never going to work.

Dave

Dave you are 1 million% correct.
It is now after thought, and everyones input on here, a bad idea after all.
Its hard enough getting staff to do, what you want when your present:)

[JulieC]

You can also have just the same share holders on both companies, Example. a UK partnership with you and your partner owning 50/50 and the same share holding in the U.S. The UK business doesnt have to own the U.S. Business as long as it has a qualifying relationship, i.e. ownership. you just have to word your application right.

Carl.

Yes but needs to be exactly the same both sides of the pond. You know this is where we fell down. The rules say substantially the same, but in our experience they want exactly. We argued on their interpretation of the word substantially but no one listened.

[Carl]

Yes but needs to be exactly the same both sides of the pond. You know this is where we fell down. The rules say substantially the same, but in our experience they want exactly. We argued on their interpretation of the word substantially but no one listened.

Thats what I said.

carl.

[CAbound2010]

ok folks a BIG thank you
more notes for the ever growing notebook! lol :)

[JulieC]

Thats what I said.

carl.

It rules out giving a manager a share incentive though. Which had been suggested earlier in the thread.