Are these racist remarks or not?

[Munish]

So this is big news today. A conservative front bencher was sacked by David Cameron for being racist. But are his remarks really racist? I think they were stupid, but I do not believe he is racist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6434053.stm

I am not racist, says sacked Tory

Mr Mercer said he 'came down hard' on racism Tory MP Patrick Mercer - who was forced to quit his frontbench role over comments he made about black soldiers - has said he is not a racist.

Mr Mercer, an ex-colonel, had to resign after he said he had met "a lot" of "idle and useless" ethnic minority soldiers who used racism as a "cover".

He said he accepted his comments might have "hurt" soldiers who served with him and "embarrassed" his party.

But he said he had been reporting what he had seen going on in the army.

And he stressed he always "came down hard" on racist bullying when he came across it.

'Fine line'

In the newspaper interview that sparked the row, Mr Mercer appeared to suggest being called a "black *******" was a normal part of Army life.

Conservative leader David Cameron said his comments, to The Times website, were "unacceptable" and asked for his resignation.

Mr Mercer, MP for Newark, later said he "deeply" regretted any "offence" he had caused.

But speaking to his local radio station, BBC Radio Nottingham, after his resignation, he said he did not think his comments had been racist.

"I am repeating what I heard going on inside the army and that's why when I took over command of Nottinghamshire's own battalion I was absolutely rock hard about these things and made sure there was no racism in my battalion."

He said there was a "fine line between friendly ribaldry and actually racist and other forms of bullying," but on the few occasions when racism did occur he "absolutely jumped on it".

'Hurt'

He said his battalion, which had a high number of black and ethnic minority soldiers in it, was "happy and harmonious".

But he added: "There is no doubt...that what I said was unwise, that the decision has been made that I should be removed from the front bench because clearly I have embarrassed the party.

"And I imagine that I have caused hurt to some of the splendid soldiers that I commanded.

"That's why I have apologised and that's why I have gone. That's the decision and I support it."

'Modern practices'

He accused the Times of putting an "extremely mendacious angle" on his comments.

The deputy chairman of the Scottish Conservative Party, Bill Walker, said that although Mr Mercer was "reporting factually what happened" he could have "chosen different words to describe it in order to comply with modern practices".

"In the world we live in people take offence very easily and very quickly, and sadly in politics you have to learn to live in the times you live in - not in the past," adding that he would not have sacked Mr Mercer for the comments.

Mr Mercer was backed by a former member of his battalion, Leroy Hutchinson, who told BBC Radio Nottingham: "In my 12 years with the battalion no form of racism went unpunished."

Cameron's regret

Mr Mercer, who spent 25 years in the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters regiment, said in the Times interview: "If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat *******, come on you ginger *******, come on you black *******.'"

He also said: "I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless, but who used racism as cover for their misdemeanours."

Explaining his decision to sack Mr Mercer, Mr Cameron said: "The comments made by Patrick Mercer are completely unacceptable and I regret that they were made.

"We should not tolerate racism in the Army or in any walk of life."

[InnVic]

I don't think its racist, its an observation - may not be a popular one but last time I looked the UK was still a country that allowed free speech (so long as it wasn't offensive) . Its sad that everyone is so sensitive and things have to be so "PC" . I have black and asian friends and know many wonderful and hardworking people from ethnic minorities, but like every other walk of life there are always a few that look to exploit circumstances in this case the race card.

As a magistrate in the UK I remember we had a young guy in the dock who screamed indignantly that this wan't fair he was only arrested because he was black, that the police were racist that the court was racist and that he would sue..." Funnily enough he appeared to have lost his toungue when we enquired " if he was just a victim of circumstance could he explain why he was arrested at night in an old ladies garden with a bag full of her valuables and his fingerprints and blood/dna were on the broken glass on her kitchen door! (she had an emergency alert which brought the police there in minutes and he was caught in the act) Hardly a victim of racism I think!

[chris]

I think it's probably fair to say that if you dig deep enough in the Army you will also find idle and useless officers who are not Black. His use of the words ethnic minority were probably best not used here simply because of what I just said.
It's like the flip side on hiring. We have positive discrimination??? in hiring, which to me does no-one any favors. Call me old fashioned, but I believe it should be best person for the job. If they don't do the job, they are out. It should not matter one iota what the color of their skin is.
It was only reported in the US newspapers that some Black Leaders are trying to get N word made illegal as it is seen as insulting, etc. Yet the crazy part of this report was that the main number of people they highlighted as using it were young Blacks themselves, who apparently use it as a sign of affection!?
The whole thing is crazy.

[fatbrit]

It's like the flip side on hiring. We have positive discrimination??? in hiring, which to me does no-one any favors. Call me old fashioned, but I believe it should be best person for the job. If they don't do the job, they are out. It should not matter one iota what the color of their skin is.


Equality of opportunity rather than equality of results, eh? A rather Libertarian perspective if I may so say.

Affirmative action has only generally been legislated in school admission policies and federal employment, BTW. A few states have also enacted such legislation -- Florida is not one of them you'll be pleased to hear.

[Munish]

Affirmative action is just a way to avoid the real issue, namely inequality in society. Governments need to have the guts to introduce programmes to help areas of poverty have more opportunities. Helping a handful of minorities get to school does not deal with the society's problems itself. It also sacrifices people who are more judged to be more deserving on merit, which is totally wrong.

[fatbrit]

Affirmative action is just a way to avoid the real issue, namely inequality in society. Governments need to have the guts to introduce programmes to help areas of poverty have more opportunities. Helping a handful of minorities get to school does not deal with the society's problems itself. It also sacrifices people who are more judged to be more deserving on merit, which is totally wrong.

I think may are coming round to this viewpoint, including me. But I see it as worthwhile past objective to kick start a policy for better equality. It's just that the time to end it has come since it no longer serves this purpose.

I live for many years in central Europe, where the pressing minority issue was that of the Roma. The administration of the early twentieth century had tried to exterminate them, the Communists had treated them as equal to the majority -- but denied their culture and turned them into welfare recipients, and the governments after the wall fell ignored them or railed against them, and they fled to the rural backwaters as society turned against them (or Blighty!). The most pressing problem after this turbulent history was an almost total lack of an intelligentsia and representation throughout society.

One solution to addressing the problem was to provide unique, Roma-only schools with high funding to attract the best teachers and equipment in order to produce the future leaders and a professional class for the Roma. Affirmative action if you like! And boy did the local majority moan about it.

I believe it has its place in the variety of tools necessary to overcome inequality. But in the US, it has passed its sell-by date.

[Susie]

Hi

Do not think racist just a slip of the tounge, too many people want us all to be policiacally correct. May have been better to say West Indian, Nigerian etc.,

We are called white, so do we get upset, no

Too many people try to call the race card only when it suits them. Bit like the boy who cried wolf once too often, in the end no one listens

[anniefromessex]

Susie,

Absolutely!! You are the voice of reason!! Well said.

Anniexx

[fatbrit]

Hi

Do not think racist just a slip of the tounge, too many people want us all to be policiacally correct. May have been better to say West Indian, Nigerian etc.,

We are called white, so do we get upset, no

Too many people try to call the race card only when it suits them. Bit like the boy who cried wolf once too often, in the end no one listens


But surely you are not trying to deny the common existence of racism or its destructive force. :confused:

[Susie]

But surely you are not trying to deny the common existence of racism or its destructive force. :confused:


Hi

Quite frankly I get sick and tired of hearing all this rubbish about being racist and people just using/playing the race card when it suits.

Some people are racist but most are not, some people are kind some are not, some are good looking some are not. It takes all sorts for the world to go round but there are those of the ethnic minority who are also racists too. Takes all sorts for the world to go round and good and bad people no matter what race they are

[fatbrit]

Hi

Quite frankly I get sick and tired of hearing all this rubbish about being racist and people just using/playing the race card when it suits.

Some people are racist but most are not, some people are kind some are not, some are good looking some are not. It takes all sorts for the world to go round but there are those of the ethnic minority who are also racists too. Takes all sorts for the world to go round and good and bad people no matter what race they are

Society is racist, not just people. Racism is institutionalized in the US and this produces racist outcomes -- even when individuals themselves are not especially prejudiced. To dismiss it is silly. It is a simple fact.

[InnVic]

My 80 year old Mum was verbally attacked by another customer in a store because when asked which counter to get something from she described the person who served her as "the nice coloured girl". Now I know that the proper term is black - but my Mothers remark would have been considered okay several years ago and was certainly not uttered with any malicious intent. However she was subjected to a tirade of abuse an called an "ignorant old cow". She cried for days.

Racisim is not the only predjudice.

[Munish]

That is terrible. Giving an elderly person verbal abuse is below all common decency and just pure vile. Your Mother's remark was a compliment, which is obvious, by referring to her as "nice."

The word "colored" is simply a description - nothing more, nothing less. One of my US friends had a go at me for using the term "black" and told me I should used the term "African American!" I mean what stupidity. Besides they might be from non-immigrants West Indies. May be I should say, "probably from African descent based on skin colour, but it is difficult to draw the conclusion because they or their ancestors may originate from or may have migrated to a different continent"

If you want refer to me as "brown," "coloured," or whatever go ahead! I would only be offended if you knew my name and did not use it, but not because I think it is racist. Next thing you know it will be offensive to call me "Asian."

Maybe you should refer to me as the guy "who visibly seems like he comes from India, but equally might be from Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh or another Asian country, but we cannot with absolute certainty come to that conclusion because it might offend him and besides he or his ancestors may originate from or have migrated to differrent continent."

Political correctness is one thing, but when you use that to insult other that is just terrible!

[InnVic]

Thanks for the post Mun79 - my mum was horrorfied that she'd offended someone and that hurt as much as the woman telling her off. I told her that most rational people "probably from African descent based on skin colour, but it is difficult to draw the conclusion because they or their ancestors may originate from or may have migrated to a different continent" would not take offence to the description/comment she made. Angry people, people with chips on their shoulder people with little purpose in life but to rally against whatever the latest cause is are the ones that consider it okay to criticize the slightest flaw in others...are thy so perfect. There may be some institutional predjudice (i refuse to single out racism as its not the only discrimination) but is it really that entrenched that we have to swing so far to the left to counteract it? We now have women that take offence when a guy opens the door for them - is that really sexist? Some one who innocently asks a guy who unbeknown happens to be gay, what his wife does? Is that homophobic? But these are all things I was told that were taboo when I did UK government "diversity training". You become so fearful of offending that you just avoid eye contact or conversing with people you don't know. To go back to the Army thing - my husband was in the RAF - during his training he was subject to a tirade of abuse and insults - this was what happened to ALL recruits and was part of the initiation. If guys (and girls) are expected to fight and kill (or be killed) for their country doesn't it concern you that they can be so hurt by name calling! Imagine at the battle front "Thats it I'm going home... he called me fat!"

[fatbrit]

There may be some institutional predjudice (i refuse to single out racism as its not the only discrimination) but is it really that entrenched that we have to swing so far to the left to counteract it?

I'm sorry that you find it so easy to dismiss institutionalized racism. I take my industry, I'm afraid, and choose Fort Lauderdale, Florida since it's close to home for many of you. Here it is in blue and white...

Racial disparities remain even among homeowners of the same income level.

Upper-income African-American homeowners were 2.9 times more likely than upper-income white homeowners to receive a subprime refinance loan in 2002. Upper-income Latinos were 1.8 times more likely to receive a subprime loan than upper-income whites.

Middle-income African-Americans were 3.2 times more likely than middle-income whites to receive a subprime refinance loan, while middle-income Latinos were 1.8 times more likely than middle-income whites.

Moderate-income African-Americans were 3.3 times more likely to receive a subprime refinance loan than moderate-income whites, while moderate-income Latinos were 2 times more likely to receive a subprime refinance loan than moderate-income whites.

Low-income African-Americans were 3.3 times more likely to receive a subprime refinance loan than low-income whites, while low-income Latinos were 3 times more likely to receive a subprime loan than low-income whites.

Source: http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/Community_Reinvestment/Reports/S_and_E_2004/FL.pdf


There is nothing special about the lending industry and its ingrained racism BTW. You could choose any number of industries and find the same figures.

So the answer to your question is YES, it is entrenched. Where we need to swing is open to debate. But I usually find that there is no solution to a problem unless we accept that there is a problem. And for some this step has yet to be made.

[Munish]

I agree there is a problem that needs to be debated and addressed. But, the point here is that abusing elderly people is not the means for doing it.

I used to be part of an organization that works with kids from ethnic minority and working class backgrounds. We used to train and develop them, essentially which involved a combination of encouraging, developing and some straight talking. I am proud to say many have gone on to college and got to A level grades, doing degrees and even obtaining professional jobs.

Anyway in one class seven kids came 2 minutes late after lunch. They all happened to be black. I made it very clear that if anyone returned 1 second later without reasonable excuse they would all be sent home. They all happened to be black. I could not resist (a few days later I read an article in the Financial Times about the social problems and how black people are not getting into university in sufficient numbers and are a significant population in the UK prisons), and so to I knew I had to trigger a lively debate. I asked, "why is it that everyone who was late is black? is this coincidence or something else?" The intial reaction is as expected (which is why the article above really caught my attention)

I tell you that was a risky but very important opening line. It started a strong debate, with a strong divide; half the class thought I was racist and the other half thought I was making an observation. The CEO (who is black woman) came in and the kids got her attention. When they pleaded the race card, she replied. "It's true. You were all late and like he said, you are all black. I am sick and tired of black people making excuses for themselves but refusing to be responsible for their actions."

Two points are particularly interesting here. First, could I have made that statement, or rather asked those questions if my employer was not black? I have a feeling the answer could well be no No. Second, yes there is institutionalised racism, but there is also lethargy and a refusal to be responsible for your own actions, using race as the card.

As much as Governments have to push the social agenda and deal with inequality, people themselves have to take responsibility for their own actions. After the recent gang shootings in London, the black community made this point themselves. "As parents we have to take responsibility," was the message from people.

Yes, there is a catch 22, kids cannot relay on teeange single mothers as ideal role models, which is why Governments have to take responsibility to introduce effective programme at grass roots level and not go from the top (by things like affirmative action).

[SarahG]

To Innvic,

What an awful thing to happen to your mom. I think of how times have changed in the years yours and my parents (who are 75 and 72) have lived :)

My mom, who is 72, lives in the UK and would use the term "nice coloured girl" too. She would probably use it when visiting us on holiday.

As I see it, people who originated or live in the UK wouldn't think to call a person of color "African-American" because coming from the UK its not a term we would use. I've left my PC manual at home (LOL) and cannot check if we use the term African-Brit, perhaps someone can enlighten me.

When we first moved here we were told by an American friend to make sure we referred to black people as African-American. I asked why African and he said that if you trace back far enough all black people came from Africa. His words, not mine.

I had a black guy working for me - and I will refer to him as black because he asked me to. He has Indian and Kenyan parents and said he thought himself black more than African-American - in fact he said the term African-American annoyed him.

By the way, my post is not intended to offend anyone - just an observation. I've seen some of the threads on this forum just lately :)

Sarah

[InnVic]

fat Brit
Women still earn less than men and old people are discriminated against when applying for jobs If your jewish or muslim or cathoilic or prodestant - some one will discriminate on grounds of religion, if you didn't go to university people won't credit you with any intelligence ditto if you're blonde and have big boobs, and if your dressed untidily people assume you have no worth and if you're disabled some people talk to you like you'restupid. I do not deny predjudice exists - but there are many forms and manifestations. Perhaps you could rationalise why in the UK a Black police officers association is considered okay but a White Police officers association would be considered racist? This sort of separatism does not go any way to help the cause of acceptance but goes further to create an "us and them" feeling which can add to any perception of racism.

[SarahG]

I agree with InnVic, especially since I am a woman and blonde (not big boobs though :) ) and have come across discrimination because of it, not least of which was not getting paid the prevailing rate that men doing the same job are. There was no association that I could call on for help.

[fatbrit]

fat Brit
Women still earn less than men and old people are discriminated against when applying for jobs If your jewish or muslim or cathoilic or prodestant - some one will discriminate on grounds of religion, if you didn't go to university people won't credit you with any intelligence ditto if you're blonde and have big boobs, and if your dressed untidily people assume you have no worth and if you're disabled some people talk to you like you'restupid. I do not deny predjudice exists - but there are many forms and manifestations. Perhaps you could rationalise why in the UK a Black police officers association is considered okay but a White Police officers association would be considered racist? This sort of separatism does not go any way to help the cause of acceptance but goes further to create an "us and them" feeling which can add to any perception of racism.

What a mishmash of ideas! I think we are having enough problems considering racial inequality before pulling in general ideas of prejudice here. Are you trying to make a point or just dilute the argument?

The US also has black police officer associations. I would hazard a guess that this is because they don't feel that the regular police officer associations address their specific issues. It might be considered that there's already a white police officer association but that they merely dropped the word "white" from the front. Agree it would be easier if all officers felt accepted under the single association. Have you any suggestions how they could all get along better together?

[InnVic]

Yes I was trying to make a point - if you can't see it then I've no intention of trying to explain further.
I can understand your passion for the equal treatment for all ethnic minorities if you have personally experienced racial discrimination. And if this is the case then I apologise if this seems insensitive. However as a Guardian reader I would have thought you'd be more supportive of the concept of ALL discrimination being unacceptable. But being female blonde with big boobs and not going to University what could I be expected to know about this.

[Munish]

InnVic, I have to totally agree with you on this one and I am sure most people will too. ALL forms of discrimination is unacceptable, whether it's age, colour, sex, stereotype, hair colour etc. etc. You cannot simply address one form of discrimination just because it is more prevalent to the detriment of others, or hide behind the problems and call it "dilution."

This is precisely what is wrong with the public immigration debate right now. All the "illegal immigrants" are grabbing the headlines and this is to the detriment of the problems happening to "legal immigrants" or people in my position who are not being properly treated under the current legal provisions.

[fatbrit]

Yes I was trying to make a point - if you can't see it then I've no intention of trying to explain further.
I can understand your passion for the equal treatment for all ethnic minorities if you have personally experienced racial discrimination. And if this is the case then I apologise if this seems insensitive. However as a Guardian reader I would have thought you'd be more supportive of the concept of ALL discrimination being unacceptable. But being female blonde with big boobs and not going to University what could I be expected to know about this.

I believe it was Chris or Bobby who declared me to be a Guardian reader, not me. I read it on the web occasionally -- and a jolly good read it usually is -- but then I read an awful lot of other news and opinion in print and on the web as well.

Gender, mammary gland size and education have not, I believe, played a part in my replies to you. Indeed, the latter two were not discernable before you placed them on the table, and the initial one was not fully certain.

I support the concept of all discrimination being unacceptable. I do not, I think, support the concept of using general prejudice to blow smoke over racial prejudice.

[InnVic]

I believe it was Chris or Bobby who declared me to be a Guardian reader, not me. I read it on the web occasionally -- and a jolly good read it usually is -- but then I read an awful lot of other news and opinion in print and on the web as well.

"My mother happily keeps me informed of all the ongoings and ensures I read my Weekly Telegraph. I don't like to tell her I'd rather she sent the Grauniad." from your post 4th April 2006


Gender, mammary gland size and education have not, I believe, played a part in my replies to you. Indeed, the latter two were not discernable before you placed them on the table, and the initial one was not fully certain.

Its called humour - lighten up.

I support the concept of all discrimination being unacceptable. I do not, I think, support the concept of using general prejudice to blow smoke over racial prejudice.

A contradictory response....you put racisim is first amongst equals?

This intention of the thread was do we think the remarks made were racist - not "institutional racisim does it exist - discuss" We are an Ex-pats foum - we're all "foreigners" here. If you truely feel we are an ignorant and racist group then why post here? It seems to me that to post argument to inflame and get reaction is the action of a troll!

[Kriz1]

Racist people come from all over....the most racist person I knew was black....I can't hold my hand up and say I'm not a little racist...I'm not sure I'd believe anyone who did....

[fatbrit]

A contradictory response....you put racisim is first amongst equals?

This intention of the thread was do we think the remarks made were racist - not "institutional racisim does it exist - discuss" We are an Ex-pats foum - we're all "foreigners" here. If you truely feel we are an ignorant and racist group then why post here? It seems to me that to post argument to inflame and get reaction is the action of a troll!

Most of my replies were directed at your post #2 where you blew smoke on the issue by dismissing with your anecdote. It was a form of denial and I called you on it, simple as that. It is not unusual for forum threads to deviate from the initial premise. It is also not unusual for people to avoid investigating their own prejudices and how these might be perceived by others by bending the subject.

As to why I post, I thought it was worth pointing out. You are actually a very small group but with a disproportionate amount of PR -- and there was a certain direction to many of the posts. There is obviously some truth to it since it raised a few hackles. I am very active on immigration issues and fully support the desire of E2-ers to gain permanent residency and other issues concerning bureaucratic inefficiency. I don't think you do anything for the cause by basing it on disparaging rants about other immigrants, holding up an ole' racist cowboy as your role model, or using stereotypes rather than facts.

If you're not exactly like us and don't think like us, xxx- off (edit Susie, offensive)-- eh? There rests the case for the prosecution, m'lud!




Fatbrit, Please refer to forum rules regarding the edit word

[Susie]

InnVic, I have to totally agree with you on this one and I am sure most people will too. ALL forms of discrimination is unacceptable, whether it's age, colour, sex, stereotype, hair colour etc. etc. You cannot simply address one form of discrimination just because it is more prevalent to the detriment of others, or hide behind the problems and call it "dilution."

This is precisely what is wrong with the public immigration debate right now. All the "illegal immigrants" are grabbing the headlines and this is to the detriment of the problems happening to "legal immigrants" or people in my position who are not being properly treated under the current legal provisions.




Hi

Well posted.



On a foot note

Just a reminder, no offensive/swear words, personal comments or attacks are allowed against any member or others

By the way,


Yes I am a blonde, and no, I am not dumb!