Article for E2 Age Out Protection: Ideas and help please! [Archive]

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Munish

04-19-2007, 07:19 AM

Hi all,

I was thinking about attempting to write an article on the need for E2ers' chldren to be protected from age out next week. Can you direct me to any existing benefits that already apply under legislation, rules or practice so I can see the current position. I am also looking to see if there is any related provision in the Strive Bill so far.

Can you post your ideas and contributions here so it can be as comprehensive and coherent as I am able to do. It seems progress on E2 to immigration is underway, but as Susie has pointed out before, age out problems has to be addressed, which will affect or may have affected many of you.

I am looking for existing laws, rules, practices etc. I am also looking for arguments in favour of age our protection. While these may seem obvious I would still prefer us to bounce ideas around in case we come up with some novel ideas or anything I have missed.

The article is intended to be an analysis of the current position and the reasons why age out pretection should be provided so we can make strong lobbying representations. Having to to deal with the frustrations of age out myself is a nightmare so I fully empathise with the Parents of children where this is going to be or has been a problem.

You might also want to include related or other issues or provisions for comparison, such as illegal immigrants being provided with a path to immigrant status, but E2ers, who have often spent more than a decade in the USA and whose children have been literally raised in the USA not being given any or, relatively speaking, less protection when arguably more protection is deserving.

Before I post any such article I will post it to this thread to get your reactions and make any further amendments as well.

chris

04-19-2007, 12:30 PM

Munish,
Gopd on you for taking up this challenge. As an E2'r who's been here 7 years and got 2 kids 8 and 11, you can see clearly that mine are both mini-americans in every sense of the word and were brought here by me and wifey and had no say in the matter. They are both exceptionally bright kids (A+Honor Roll and Gifted Program) so the USA would get some real payback if they were allowed to achieve citizenship or permanency NOT age out at 21.
I can't offer any legislation tips, as I'm not particularly a clued up person in that area, but one suggestion might be to look at how the UK treats the kids of the equivalent E2 visa for the Yanks in the UK.
We already know that for the Yanks coming to the UK on the equivalent E2 have the facility to gain LPR after 3 eyars and UK citizenship after a further 12 months. But what happens to the kids of those Yanks at 21?
The Treaty of Trade that exist for E2 should ensure parity both ways for all individuals under said Treaty. That should extend to children and spouses of E2 & equiv Visa holders.

tracifrost

04-19-2007, 03:36 PM

Kriz1

04-19-2007, 04:03 PM

I kind of agree with everyone...tracifost is right...but then again....the E2 is one of the only ways most people have of getting into the USA ....a few years ago I would of said get a job that leads to a H1B...which is what we did and it took 12 years to get here ..but H1bs are now harder to come by...and the rules may change where families will no longer get visa's to come over with the H1B visa holder...
There has always been a visa missing for people with a good education and or experence...with money to buy a company...to come over and have a pathway to a greencard...
Kids are the ones paying the price for this....they have no say in all this for the most part...and I see no reason why they can't be given a guest worker permit which can lead to a greencard so they can prove their worth....

chris

04-19-2007, 04:58 PM

Traci,
Thanks for your honesty about E2'rs. As one myself, I'd like to say that before we came here on E2 we'd spent a good while researching and as Kriz said in order to make the move over, you consider all the visa options. For many people E or L are the only realistic options and if you don't have a UK biz, then L is not an option.
Let me also say that, whilst I agree that some do 2 weeks in Disney and then make the move, many others, ourselves included didn't...so please don't tar everyone with the same brush.
The Visa are a bit like a moveable feast, they do change, albeit slowly. When we first arrived in 2000 the spouse was not allowed to work or get a SS#. That has now changed. It goes without saying that the visas will in time change in ways.
You are on L and have a clear path to GC, even though the L is still a non-immigrant visa like the E. However, and I could argue this all day with you, the difference between the biz activity of an L in the US and that of an E in the US is zero. Yet one gets the short end of the stick.
That is why there needs to be change.
Please don't start spouting the 'you knew what you were getting into'. I've heard that so many times it's boring.
PS. The E can be renewed 'indefinitely'. There is the difference between that and 'permanently". Most E2'rs know that difference.

tracifrost

04-19-2007, 05:12 PM

:) Here am i once again defending me. I am not accusing all E2ers here, but i am aware of the situation. like the rest of you, how many times have you all come across whilst living here, a brit say to you
'how long are you here for then?'
reply 'oh i live here'
then something along the lines of
'wow how did you do that? can you advise, we dont care we just want to live here, this place is brilliant, so clean, so this that and the other'
THOSE are the people with no consideration, lets face it we all started off somewhere, myself included, coming here for a holiday and seeing 'greener grass'
I wasnt suggesting for one minute that YOU chris are irresponsible.

Munish

04-20-2007, 05:01 PM

Imho, the most important people with reagrds to the E visa situation and what needs a leglaslative fix is the issue of the children of E visa holders.
Children have no choice in their parents decision to be brought to the USA. They could be a few months old upon arrival, live here 20 years then have to find a way to stay in the USA. They are as American as the rest of the children in the block.

I believe that children of E visa holders, should have the right to apply for adjustment of status to that of LPR which can lead to a green card. Once these children have been a LPR for 5 years then they can sponcer their parents for a green card. This could/would be subject to the child being of good moral character

Just adding this from a previous quote from Susie for this thread so its in one place.

chris

04-20-2007, 05:59 PM

Good one Munish,
I was beginning to think this was jst arguing about the E2 Visa and the adults behind them. When this thread is about the innocents in all this - the kids. It matters nought whether you are on E, L or even GC, the young kids get dragged along. This thread is about Kids of E visas. Lets stick with that concept and have some meaningful input for the kids sake.

InnVic

04-20-2007, 06:03 PM

I do understand because people come here on holiday and all they can see is, Florida, Florida, Florida.

I've never been to Florida:confused:
Did I get it wrong??

(....remember there are another 49 states!)

Munish

04-21-2007, 02:18 PM

How can they make our kids, every morning pledge to the flag and then in a heart beat take that away and tell them sorry you actually dont belong here!!!

Very interesting!

chris

04-21-2007, 03:31 PM

I think with the pledge bit in the mornings at schools, my 2 kids do it and stand there like 2 yanks every time there is the pledge or US national anthem. It does get to me every now and again, because of how we are (as a family unit) regarded here. I remember back at school, many years ago (I'm an old fart), when it was morning assembly, the non-Anglican folks - catholics, etc, were asked by the headmaster to leave the hall if they did not to be there. Yet the Americans make the assumption that every child in school is American. It is part disrespect on the part of the schools that they do not acknoweledge that not every child in that school is an american.

Kriz1

04-21-2007, 03:37 PM

Munish

04-21-2007, 03:56 PM

My take is even if pledging allegiance to the USA is "voluntary," if you show the respect of such pledging allegiance (and considering you have settled there as a child and without choice, why not be granted at least "special status" allowing the child to choose whether they wish to have permanent residency.

If there is concern on the one hand about certain people abusing the E2 as a route to permanent residency and about the fact it is unfair for children to age out when they have lived in the USA for most of their lives by that point, it seems the only viable solution is to give the children the option to apply for "permanent residency" subject to eligibility. This could be subject to a requirement to have lived in the USA for a certain number of years, completed certain levels of schooling etc.

There has been hope and doubts as to whether reform for E2s will take place. If it does not, the status quo does not protect the children. If it does, the children still need special forms of protection in the following circumstances:

If the parents are not eligible for permanent residency;
If the parents are eligible but have not applied before the child ages out;
If the parents are eligible and have applied but the child ages out before final approval is made;
If the child has already aged out (though this one would be subject to more contention than the other scenarios.

Munish

04-25-2007, 08:28 PM

I'm attempting to post something today, now that i have just finished another chapter on my own book. Please double check all postings on this thread and add any new thoughts.

Would be particularly good if I can the viewpoints of Mitch and Charlotte and any other children of nonimmigrant visa holders.

I will try and have something on this tonight, but don't expect too much. It will be that starting point from which I will need to get various responses and make further amendments. Hopefully, what we end up will come to come good use.

haytonmac

04-25-2007, 08:36 PM

As a LPR and only been here since July,my daughter who atteneds high school does not take part in the pledge.She stands but that is it,her argument is that she is not an American citizen yet and its not her flag!this comes from a 17 yrs old .

Munish

04-25-2007, 08:50 PM

Does anyone know whether the treaty is bilaterial so each country has a separate treaty with the USA, or multilateral so more than one other country is signed to the same treaty?

If there is more than one treaty, are the provisions the same?

The working title is "The Impact of E2 Visa Holders on the USA and Impact of the USA on their Children."

In light of these are there any statistics available on the contribution of E2 businesses on the US economy?

Susie

04-25-2007, 09:06 PM

Hi

Only just noticed this thread as still trying to catch up and will comment later.

Munish

04-25-2007, 09:39 PM

Visa Stats

Intracompany transferees (L-1): (2005), 312,144/1.0% (2004) 314,484/1.0%, (2003) 298,054/1.1%, (2002) 313,699/1.1%.
Treaty investors (E-2): (2005) 143,786, (2004) 135,851, (2003) 124,418, (2002) 124,928

Top Five Country Nonimmigrant Stats

United Kingdom: (2005) 5,087,096/15.9%, (2004) 5,051,364/15.9%, (2003) 4,583,897/16.5% (2002) 4,304,098/15.4%;
Mexico: (2005) 4,774,161/14.9%, (2004) 4,454,054/14.5%, (2003) 4,307,144/15.5%, (2002) 4,183,988/15.0%;
Japan: (2005) 4,400,386/13.7%, (2004) 4,335,972/14.1%, (2003) 3,589,589/12.9%, (2002) 3,651,856/13.1%;
Germany: (2005) 1,711,425/5.3%, (2004) 1,630,243/5.3%, (2003) 1,439,131/5.2%, (2002) 1,405,856/5.0%
France: (2005) 1,309,830/4.1%, (2004) 1,244,6421/4.0, (2003) 1,039,097/3.7, (2002) 1,057,292/3.8

State of Destination Stats (2004)
Among all nonimmigrant admissions re-corded by NIIS, excluding transit aliens, the most common states of destination included Florida (16 percent), California (13 percent), New York (12 percent), Texas (7 percent), and Hawaii (6 percent) (see Table 7). Combined, these five states represented the destinations of over half of all temporary admissions in 2004. Four additional states, including Nevada (2.9 percent), Illinois (2.3 percent), New Jersey (2.2 percent), and Massachusetts (2.1 percent), each represented over 2 percent of admissions.

Munish

04-25-2007, 11:59 PM

The Impact of E2 and L1 Visa Holders on the USA and Impact of the USA on their Children

The L1 and E2 Visas

Various countries have signed to a treaty with the USA enabling the nationals of both the USA and the other treaty countries to obtain a visa, provided the eligibility requirements are met, to invest in the other country. [not complete - this will only be a simple intro so ignore this paragraph]

The Impact of E2 and L1 Holders on the USA

E2 and L1 visas holders and business representatives provide a unique boost to the American economy. At the bare minimum these holders are self-sufficient and support the US economy though the generation of income, promotion of consumer expenditure and other forms of market demand, and the payment of taxes. In addition, these visa holders often provide employment opportunities, whether as E2 business investors or L1 managers, to United States citizens.

To illustrate the impact these migrants have on the US economy, the following statistic show how many L1 and E2 visa holders are admitted to the USA each year:

Treaty investors (E-2): 143,786 (2005), 135,851 (2004), 124,418 (2003), 124,928 (2002);
Intracompany transferees (L-1): 312,144 (2005), 314,484 (2004), 298,054 (2003), 313,699 (2002).
Total: 455,930 (2005), 450,335 (2004), 422,472 (2003), 438,627 (2002).

E2 and L1 visas generally require renewal every two years, requiring the visa hold to return to their home country for a consular interview. Taking into account the steady annual increase in the issuance of such visas since 2002, and the 2005 figures, there are over 900,000 L1 and E2 visa holders in the USA today. Even when taking into account those L1 holders who have not been provided any recruitment authority by their employer, the large number of such E2 and L1 holders means their contribution to the US economy is very substantial. It would not be unrealistic to estimate that the number of US citizens being employed due to the availability of these visas is at least in the hundreds of thousands if not above one million.

The Nonimmigrant Nature of the L1 and E2 Visas and the Arguments for Immigrant Status

Both the L1 and E2 visas provide the holders with nonimmigrant status. This is initially an appropriate treatment. To provide applicants with immigrant status from the start would simply cause an influx of would immigrants to the United States. Many would take advantage of these visas for the sole purpose of the obtaining permanent residency behind the guise of a business.

For would be employees, there are already opportunities for employment-based green cards. For would be investors, there are also opportunities for investor green cards. These avenues are well established, although the current provisions are being reviewed by the Government for their current appropriateness, taking into account the needs of US employers as well as the economy and to address the current skills shortages. The US is not competing with the rest of the world for recruiting the best talent, and their immigration laws have to keep pace ensuring it continues to attract the employees and investors that provide a boost to their economy.

However, as time goes on circumstances change. A business investor my close or otherwise transfer their business thereby ending their E2 status. Similarly an L1 employer may face changes that result in L1 employees losing their status. Following their visa expiration and presuming there has not been any adjustment to any other visa status they return to their home countries having made their contribution to the US economy.

However, in practice businesses work on a much longer term basis and, if successful are not subject to sudden changes but steady growth. They employ US citizens creating benefits all round. The visa holders themselves adjust to life in the USA. In many cases many stay for more than five years. They adapt their culture to and integrate in to US society, assimilate US values of freedom and respect for diversity, and develop long-term friendships and other relationships.

Because of this many have argued for the eligibility for E2 holders, in particular, to be able to adjust to immigrant status. Under current immigration laws such a right does not exist. One option for the luckiest of E2 holder is that their businesses expand to such a degree that they may qualify for an investor EB-5 investor’s visas. However, this is not an option except for a handful of holders because of lack of eligibility.

The justifications for expanding the ability for E2 holder to adjust to immigrant status are persuasive. Often the treaty countries provide a basis for immigrant status following a period of existence of the visa holding investor’s business and so reciprocity is used as one argument. Another argument is the clear economic benefits such holders provide not just to the US economy, but also to its people through employment. A successful economic contribution should be rewarded with immigrant rights such as the right to vote.

Even if readers are not persuaded by these arguments, one argument that cannot be easily dismissed is the impact that the current immigration laws have on have on the children of E2 and L1 holder (as well as other nonimmigrant categories).

The Impact US Immigration Laws on the Children of Nonimmigrants

At first glance US immigration laws seem to appropriately cater for the children of visa applicants and holders. They may be provided with derivative status, which means as long as the visa holder remains “in status,” the children also remain entitled to stay in the USA.

However, there is one major problem. This is the issue of “age out.” When a child turns 21, they are no longer eligible to remain in “derivative status” because the law no longer considers them to be a child. As a result, unless they have another basis on which they may remain in the USA, they are forced to leave the USA.

Consider this. A child, Jack, comes to the USA at a very early age, because their parents are nonimmigrant visa holders. Jack has no choice in the matter because separation from his family is not an option. He may have enrolled in a US school before reaching the age of 10, and may be, if he was much younger, he attended kindergarten in the USA. Jack has fully established his life in the USA without having a choice in the matter because of a choice his Parents made. However, he embraces his new life, develops friendships and fully integrates into US society by being schooled under the US system. He has quickly developed an American accent and is culturally American in every way. He loves his Pizza and has been a massive Yankees and Knicks fan. As he grows even his dress sense is that of a US teenager. He is now so American that he fully supports America in every way including singing the national anthem whenever the opportunity arises such as in school.

Now consider Jack has younger sister, Mary. She is born in the USA and so is a US citizen by constitutional right. However both siblings have very different rights. When Jack turns 18, he can’t vote, but Mary can when she turns 18. Jack can’t join the military, but Mary can.

Mary, as a US citizen, has the ability to go college. She is smart, and has received scholarships, saving her many thousands of dollars. She can make the difference by loans and part-time work. Jack, on the other hand came top of his class. However, he is ineligible for most scholarships because he is not a permanent resident despite having lived in the USA for most of his life. He cannot even get a competitive loan because of his nonimmigrant status.

If Jack is approaching 21 then he has to apply for a student visa. However, to be eligible he has to prove he can pay his tuition and living expenses and that he plans to return to his home country after expiration of the visa. He can’t get scholarships, he can’t get loans and his Parents do no have enough resources to enable Jack to be eligible for his visa. Even if Jack did have the money how does he convince the USCIS that he intends to return to his home country after live in the USA for most of his life and considering his family are all in the USA? His sister could sponsor him, but that is a at least a 15 year wait!

The Need for Reform for the Children

The above situation is a disaster and completely undesirable. To the USCIS he is a number. To Jack is American. But when he turns 21 he will be forced to go home unless he gets married, finds a employer willing to sponsor him or finds some other basis on which he may stay. Some may think his Parents came as nonimmigrant visa holders, but this has little to do with Jack. He came because he had, integrated and established himself as an American in all but name. Therefore the law needs changing.

Option One

One approach, and the preferred approach, is for E2 holders that have been in the USA for a certain number of years to qualify for permanent residency. The arguments have been summarized above. In addition, when comprehensive immigration reform takes place through the STRIVE Act, the irony is illegal immigrants who meet the required criteria will have a path to citizenship, but legitimate E2 holders who have come to the USA legally, after making a significant contribution to the US economy after taking great personal risk, and having been in the USA in such status for at least the same amount of time as their illegal counterparts will have no basis for immigration as the current STRIVE Bill currently stands.

It looks like a message being sent by the Government is that illegal immigrants the come to the USA with intentional disregard for immigration laws are being rewarded, but legal migrants who have fully complied with the law are not.

Under this approach there still has to be special provisions for the children because they could still lose out from such benefits where:

The parents are not eligible for permanent residency;
The parents are eligible but have not applied before the child ages out;
The parents are eligible and have applied but the child ages out before final approval is made;
The child has already aged out (though this one would be subject to more contention than the other scenarios.

Under this approach a child should be provided with the opportunity to make an application for permanent residency themselves, even after they age out and even if they have to temporarily leave the USA, which they would regard as their home country by this point.

Option Two

The alternative is to bypass the Parents so that they must remain in nonimmigrant status. However, a child who is a nonimmigrant derivative and has spent a certain number of years in the USA must be provided eligibility to apply for permanent resident status, particularly when considering the issuer related college education. Alternatively they should be provided with a special visa status, which enables them to receive scholarships and loans for college and have work authorization rights.

Munish

04-26-2007, 12:04 AM

Okay so this is the first attempt. Please provide the feedback requested. Please also be honest about its weaknesses and make your suggestions for improvements, and if you have any I am particularly interested in the comments.

Remember, this is for the children so we need a tight, persuasive document from which the arguments for reform in their favor/favour needs to be very strong. Think of it as a comprehensive document.

I am also particularly interested in law reform ideas.

v2002

04-26-2007, 12:23 AM

Munish
I think reconsider this point :

The L1 and E2 Visas
I dont think you can Compare L visa to E visa
They are totally different visa's despite having the Nonimmigrant visa status both have very different applicable conditions -
a. when it comes to changing status......
b. when it come to kids .......

E visa holder& their kids do not get LPR
But L visa holder can get GC & so do the kids :::::::
no comparison .......Infact L visa is just like H visa including getting extentions when PD is under retrogression.
Moreover unlike E visa L visa Can be issued for 5 years and one is not landlocked after filing for I485 as one can get ADP.
The children get the protection under the "child protection act" for L visa holders therefore they do not age out like E visa holder kids.

chris

04-26-2007, 12:37 AM

Munish,
A quick question relating to non-immigrants from the Uk and the stats you quoted.
2005 - L1 : 321,144
2005 - E2 : 143,786
2005 - Total Non-Immigrants : 5,087,096

What other non-immigrant visa are the other 4 million 600 and odd thousand on?

V2002,
I think yoyr remark about the E and the L visa shouls be how they ought to differ or be alike rather than how they are. I will argue till the cows come home that strip away the Uk operation from the L visa and the US business activity is the same. Therefore IMHO it should be what happens in the US that should be of importance to the USCIS NOT what happens in the UK. We all know that many UK L visa businesses are mreley shells which are summarily ditcehd once the owneres have got their greasy palms on the GC. Why have such double standards?
That said, we are straying back on the adults and not the focus of the kids.

v2002

04-26-2007, 01:00 AM

Munish,
V2002,
I think yoyr remark about the E and the L visa shouls be how they ought to differ or be alike rather than how they are. I will argue till the cows come home that strip away the Uk operation from the L visa and the US business activity is the same. Therefore IMHO it should be what happens in the US that should be of importance to the USCIS NOT what happens in the UK. We all know that many UK L visa businesses are mreley shells which are summarily ditcehd once the owneres have got their greasy palms on the GC. Why have such double standards?
That said, we are straying back on the adults and not the focus of the kids.
With all due respect Chris please read my post again .......
I did explain the difference....

byjove

04-26-2007, 01:26 AM

hi I have been in florida ever since I was 5 and being in florida has changed my life and I won't feel comfortable going back to england USA Is my home please don't send me or my family back please. me and my family are realy happy here we don't whan't to leaveall my friend's are herepleas thank you bye

byjove

04-26-2007, 01:43 AM

Hi i'm in fourth grade reach program designed for those of us that acheived 4 or higher on FCATS in 3rd grade. I am being tested for the gifted program. I play for the hardee wildcats Football defense team. I feel I have come so far in the school, when I came over I had trouble with school and fitting in. I now have my place in school and am very popular because of my accent. And my teacher said "one day I will change the world" I couldn't go back to england now, I dont know anyone. My life would be destroid as I know it. I would loose my friends, my rescued dogs, my frog and my life style. Please cosider me and the other kids here, their is a huge picture here! Sincerely

byjove

04-26-2007, 01:54 AM

OMG!
THey did well!

Told them what you guys (we all) are trying to achieve and said they could put in their piece, and I am proud, not sure its what you want but I think they did well for the first time on this.

BLess the little cottons, off to give them a huge hug!!! Later!!!

Susie

04-26-2007, 03:07 AM

Hi

What you have written is excellent. Maybe mention that not all children are able to apply for a student visa due to having downs syndrom, or other medical condiition, or their parents able to afford fees without being granted a scolarship

Maybe stress that it costs tens of thousands of dollars to educate aliens at tax payers expense yet the USA does not and cannot benefit from their talent if they do have to return to their home country

Just an idea to mention the econonmic effect on travel and toruism to the USA and heartache caused to children by the uncertainty whether a visa will be renewed or not. Also by having to renew visa's every couple of years dicourages investors to sell further assets in their home country and spend their money in the usa

I would really like to encourge the views of the child members of expatsvoice to contribute to this posting, please help Mun

I think it would be a good idea if your could speak with Anthony Olson who is a member of our site. He is an immigration attorney and working with www.feivr.org and expatsvoice.

If you need his website, e-mail or fax number please let me know and I will pm you

bobinalbuquerque

04-26-2007, 03:55 AM

sorry i know this is going to be completely misinterpreted here. but correct me if i am wrong. isnt an E visa an investment visa, isnt it right and fair in saying that an E2 is not a DUEL intent visa. and that people come here anyway bringing their children, packing up heaven and earth, moving from the UK on 'an investment visa' then hoping for the best once they are here?

I do understand because people come here on holiday and all they can see is, Florida, Florida, Florida. They just want to live here, etc and they do and they choose a visa that isnt intended for immigration at all. Then suffer the consequences later when their 'investment visa' isnt renewed.
Didnt USCIS make a statement that IF it was your intention to live here on a permanent basis, consider another visa!!
I think it is very irresponsible for 'adults' to bring their chidren here KNOWING they are HOPING to live here permanently on an Investment visa, because such adults have come here on holiday and seen Mickey Mouse for two weeks and dont want to go back to their home country!

I did not see "Florida,Florida,Florida" and really have not seen too much of "Mickey Mouse" here in New Mexico either.
Also I do not consider myself or my wife as "very irresponsible people" having brought our 1 year-old son with us some 15 years ago on our E2 visa.
Certainly anyone making the move to the U.S.A. on an E2 will know its limitations,specifically its non-immigrant status,renewal requirements,and that somewhere down the road issue of children aging out.
Consider another visa? Certainly, which one are you suggesting?Surprise,surprise,the very reason so many seek a better life here by way of the E2 is that no other avenue is open to them.Sure if you have a $million buy your way in with the EB5.If you are scientific or suchlike follow the HB route.The reality is that the E2 is a great pathway for those with a fair amount of liquid funds and more importantly the courage to invest it in a foreign land with no guaranteed weekly pay check.Irresponsible? Not in my book,not least if the decision has been made with all the right information and for all the right reasons.
I hold not an ounce of bitterness to what is I believe an unfair situation, the real issue at the moment is not about being irresponsible but rather trying to be responsible for stimulating change that is fair and equitable for all E2 holders.The only way forward is of course through the political process and I would encourage each and everyone here on an E2 to communicate the plight of their status to their local politicians office.
Hopefully those on the outside, those with more permanent status can at least recognise that the goals for E2 holders are indeed responsible,fair & just.

Munish

04-26-2007, 08:57 AM

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. Keep it coming.

V2002, it seems one solution is to remove the L1 discussion from this article. However, is the case that all L1s have a basis to convert to GC status (what is the criteria they have to meet).
Specifically, in relation to children, I changed to language to the children of "nonimigrants" generally because the same arguments apply in relation the children no matter what nonimmigrant visa their Parent have. Is this correct or not?;
Can anyone provide me with the scope of the DREAM Act so I can understand to what extent children are protected

Chris, for the nonimmigrant stats, see http://www.dhs.gov/ximgtn/statistics/publications/YrBk05NI.shtm. Select Table 26. Table 27 and 28 may also be of interest. In addition for commentaries on those stats and other immigrant/nonimmigrant/naturalization stats see http://www.dhs.gov/ximgtn/statistics/publications/yearbook.shtm.

Also, I guess your suggesting I should keep the information on L1s in there because they are similarly related to businesses, but perhaps amend the article so it more accurately reflects the actual differences between L1s and E2s?

Byjove, thanks to you and (your kids?) for their input. Yes, it was exactly what I was looking for.

Munish

04-26-2007, 09:14 AM

Susie, so to summarise your recommendations:

Not all children can apply for student visas due to health issues so are automatically ineligible. Good idea. As for Parents, did you mean they were not able to afford without a scholarship?
Costs of tens of thousands of dollars in taxes to educate aliens (presumably you mean pre-college) so why doesn't the US economy benefit from their talent. The counter argument is they already can through employment visas for example, but let me think about that so I can include it more appropriately;
The economic effect on travel and tourism. I am not sure I understand how the issue of nonimmigrant children ageing out relates to this so I can get clarification on this point please;
Heartache caused to children by the uncertainty whether a visa will be renewed or not. I'll try and assimilate this point in a new section and call it "Living the American Dream in E2 Status" or something equally cheesy.
Having to renew visa's every couple of years dicourages investors to sell further assets in their home country and spend their money in the usa. This more relevant to the E2 holder rather than children. May be I should expand the scope of the article to include E2 reform generally?
I would really like to encourge the views of the child members of expatsvoice to contribute to this posting, please help Mun I agree and have already asked. However, I can going to start a separate thread for the children on this site to present their argument.
I think it would be a good idea if your could speak with Anthony Olson who is a member of our site. Sounds good to me, if practioners can help it's always a good thing.

Munish

04-26-2007, 09:26 AM

Thanks Bob,

Well responded. I will add no matter what nonimmigrant visa you are on you will likely be packing "heaven and earth" in any case if you are coming for a long period of time. I packed "heaven and earth" for a student visa for a two year stay simply because of the length of time in involved in remaining in the USA as a nonimmigrant.

The legal reality is nonimmigrants receive a visa on the condition that they return home. The practical reality is somewhat different. It's a means for many people as a temporary solution, but hopefully for them ending up in a situation where they receive permanent residency precisely because, as Bob said, there is no basis for immigration available.

This debate is not an issue of what is currently the law, but what the law should be changed to be. I'm interested to hear comments on what people think that law should be changed to and why.

chris

04-26-2007, 01:06 PM

Munish & Bob in Alb
Great post you guys.
I realise that that the L does muddy the water when discussing the E visa, but there are important similarities in the business operation in the US and you cannot ignore that. As that is the principal reason on which a Visa decision is based in the first instance, you cannot ignore those similarities. If you consider those elements as 'inputs' then the 'outputs' can be best detailed as the other end benefits (still with me so far?). Those 'outputs' differ greatly between the 2 visas, viz L has GC conversion, E does not, etc, etc.
I do not believe that to achieve success you have to reinvent the wheel, merely make it better. Taking V2002 comments about the E/L disimilarities, yes those are known. It is trying to highlight improvements that this thread should be focussing on. If we just take the view 'well this is this Visa and this is that visa', where are we going? It is almost as disheartening as when I hear the hairy chestnut of 'you knew what you were getting into when you arrived'. Neither are a way forward.
One final point Munish and I'm playing with words here and their meaning. You mention about the visa being issued temporarily on the condition that they return home. Can we reword that to say return to your country of birth or citizenship. 'Home' is an entirely different concept as we are seeing from the postings of the young people on this great thread. Home is where our heart and our families are. Irrespective of what my official status is here in the USA, this is 'home' to me and my family. Not the UK.

Munish

04-26-2007, 01:28 PM

Thanks Chris,

I will keep the L1 visa discussion in the article in light of the fact many investors do have an option between L1 and E2 visas where they have a business outside the USA. I will also draw comparsions between L1 and E2 regarding the difference the respective holders' ability to convert to green card status.

This will entail some restructuring and modification of the article taking into account the all comments on this thread since the first draft article was published, but I think the end result will be worth the effort if it well publicised.

I agree with the use of language and so will replace any references to "returning to the home country" to "having to leave the USA" (or similar).

If not this week I hope to have something posted next week.

byjove

04-26-2007, 02:23 PM

My kids are waiting for feed back from what they wrote, v2002 thanks for the pm My son was happy. I let them put what they wanted to, what they thought of having to move back come 21. I know it is very difficult for them to imagine leaving here in 10+ years (more than double a life time to them) but I told them to close their eyes and imagine how they would feel and how others feel that are going through this right now. Then let them go!

byjove

04-26-2007, 02:25 PM

Maybe "having to leave what they have come to see as home, returning to what seems a totaly alien country"

Munish

04-26-2007, 02:29 PM

My apologies Byjove, I thought I replied. Yes their feedback was fantastic. It completely brought home the reason why our members are very passionate about the children being provided immigration protection. In fact I started another thread specifically after their response to try and encourage more kids to follow the example above.

See http://www.expatsvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2070. In fact would you mind if you copy the above posting on this thread as well?

byjove

04-26-2007, 02:38 PM

Hubby suggests, a longer visa period, a business can take many years to become established and 2 years is not long enough to have a great foot hold. Maybe a yearly "progress" submission along with taxes to immigration on the on the business with what has happened and what propsals you have for expanding, improvements, crisis management (the storms of 2005 have had a devestating effect on construction, people in this area need time to build the business again) It would be so easy to use tax returns and either a copy of the original business plans as everything is going to plan or a renewed plan. A sort of three strikes your out, kinda thing. And as a result of success after 2 consistant good years children be allowed to apply for LPR. (lets face it they only give most 2 years to make a complete success of there chosen business.) Just a thought!

DEE F

04-26-2007, 02:41 PM

Hi all,I have been reading this thread with great interest,one of the better ones I must admit,however something here is really niggling me,as far as the L1 visa is concerned and the children of that visa(gotta stress here,no kids with me)it is exactly the same for L1 kids as E2 kids in as much their parents started this journey not them,people keep saying the L1 leads to a GC,what if the green card should get refused for whatever reason????? Also an E2 visa can be extended indefinatley an L1 can only be extended for up to 7 years,so therefore if no green card then all the family are forced back to their country of origin,surely this is just as unfair to the L1 kids as it is to the E2 kids,and what if the parents no longer want to remain in the US what happenes to the kids then,if they are not old enough to make the dicision to stay then obviously they have to leave along with their parents,I know the E2 cannot lead to a GC yet!!!! But still kids are kids no matter what visa they come in on and should all be given a fair chance,it all seems to be about the E2 kids or am I misreading this,surely not every L1 visa holder gets a green card,what then happens to their children?????????????? Would be very grateful if someone would educate me on this,or am I totaly missing the point,comments please from other L1 visa holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dee xx

DebbieM

04-26-2007, 02:42 PM

I have two girls 19 & 15 I'll get them to pull something together as the eldest is fast approaching that dreaded #21.

Be in contact in the next couple of days.

Fantastic initiative - hope you got your 'bullets' sorted;) :D ;)

Debs

Munish

04-26-2007, 02:46 PM

Bingo! Yes you're spot on Dee. I need to make clear in the article that the and reform should benefit the children from ALL nonimmigrant categories.

Byjove, thanks for posting what could be our very first tabled reform proposal for the kids on this thread.

Thanks Debbie. No luck on the bullets yet, but will know by next week when I use a different computer and Word 2003.

byjove

04-26-2007, 02:53 PM

chris

04-26-2007, 02:59 PM

Dee,
Spot on lass!
I've said for ages that it frustrates the hell out of me that if you look purely at the US biz on L and E, they are the same, yet the 'outcomes for the visa holders and their families are completely different. Historically the L visa was established for the bigger company opening up a new US operation, however reality took over and I would summise that most L visas these days are for the 'small' biz operation the same as E. They are so close now the lines are getting indistinguishable, 'cept the UK biz end
Both visas do not offer a satisfactory conclusion for either party in the long term for kids.

Munish

04-26-2007, 03:02 PM

Hey Munish, Ment the kids will be thrilled that they had feed back and ment waiting in a positive way. Not critical.;)They havent seen it yet as they are at school.

OK! How do I post to the other link PM me on "how to do reposting for idiots!!!" hehehehehe:)

This is the link http://www.expatsvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2070. I'm posting it publicly so other members can use the link as well if they cannot find the link directly. Will also PM you the direct link right now.

v2002

04-26-2007, 04:53 PM

Hi Munish,
Thank god at least you understood the reply in the manner it was intented to be read.. Its very frustrating to see that some members don't get the essence of the post in the first place, and the thread gets diverted to something else.
* I am providing feedback to Munish's article not debating the immigration knitty gritty here. With that said The article if I am not wrong is to shed light on " E2 Age Out Protection": Therefore I will keep my focus on what can be the contents added in THIS ARTICLE that are relevant to it .
I will leave it to the author to make his final decision.

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone. Keep it coming.

V2002, it seems one solution is to remove the L1 discussion from this article. However, is the case that all L1s have a basis to convert to GC status (what is the criteria they have to meet).

Yes Munish E and L can not go hand in hand___ In short if your article is on L than you can have L&H together as they are almost similar.Therefore for THIS article I think leave out L.

Specifically, in relation to children, I changed to language to the children of "nonimigrants" generally because the same arguments apply in relation the children no matter what nonimmigrant visa their Parent have. Is this correct or not?;

No thats not right either...... Because under other Nonimmigrant visa the children are allowed to stay back If they are on LPR petition despite their age... where as UNDER THE E2 visa Children MUST GO BACK .. and unfortunately they do not stand very good chance at F1 visa either because the parents are here doing business and they are unable to show strong ties to UK... bottom line children under the E2 visa face HARSH and STRICT rules and regulation which in my opinion is DISCRIMINATING them and deprieving them of future opertunities of good education and life.

Can anyone provide me with the scope of the DREAM Act so I can understand to what extent children are protected

Children under dream act are protected for getting higher education provided they fulfil certain requirements....like being here under 16 ... have good moral character.... but after the finish the higher education they must GO BACK and get job visa's like everyone else .... therefore the advange is to provide them UNIVERSITY education which currently for illegals is only upto High school.

Also, I guess your suggesting I should keep the information on L1s in there because they are similarly related to businesses, but perhaps amend the article so it more accurately reflects the actual differences between L1s and E2s?

* Munish I dont think you should include L with E2 because if you do that there are other business visa's that will need it to be included too .. and than in doing so You will end up robbing the LIMELIGHT on E2 Problems......Which I am sure you dont want to do at this time .

May be you can write another article on JUST BUSINESS VISAS.:D

v2002

04-26-2007, 05:10 PM

:D Dee I will explain you with a detail in points .. if you have any Q feel free to Shoot:ME:D
Hi all,I have been reading this thread with great interest,one of the better ones I must admit,however something here is really niggling me,Dee xx
as far as the L1 visa is concerned and the children of that visa(gotta stress here,no kids with me)it is exactly the same for L1 kids as E2 kids in as much their parents started this journey not them,people keep saying the L1 leads to a GC,
*-* Yes DEE it is true.

what if the green card should get refused for whatever reason?????
*_* That is same for anyother visa... sometimes GC gets denied to H1B petions too... and the outcome is the same..GO BACK HOME and RETRY

Also an E2 visa can be extended indefinatley __
*-*Reason they have this provision is because E2 is completely an nonimmigration visa based on YOUR BUSINESS existence.....You stay as long as you have business here " thats why its called a TREATY INVESTOR VISA"...By the way the day US falls back on this treaty with any country this Visa does not exist for the citizens of that country.

an L1 can only be extended for up to 7 years,so therefore if no green card then all the family are forced back to their country of origin,
*-* However L visa is a FIXED term visa available to ALL COUNTRIES irrespective of any trade agreement.....By the way as per the recent changes If your I140 and I485 is filed you can get extention beyond 7 years if the LC is pending or you can use EAD for beyond 7 years... therefore you do not go back.

surely this is just as unfair to the L1 kids as it is to the E2 kids,and what if the parents no longer want to remain in the US what happenes to the kids then,
*-* in this situation nothing changes...What if parents dont want to bring kids to US in first place ?? you see my point? from immigration point of view its a domestic issue not immigration.. they dont tell you what to do with your kids.

I know the E2 cannot lead to a GC yet!!!! But still kids are kids no matter what visa they come in on and should all be given a fair chance,it all seems to be about the E2 kids or am I misreading this,surely
*-* The parents DO KNOW THE NATURE OF THE VISA BEFORE HAND.

not every L1 visa holder gets a green card,what then happens to their children??????????????
*_ the same as H1b visa holder family _ go back home .... come back on H visa again with a gap of one year and TRY YOUR LUCK AGAIN :D

I hope I answered all your Great questions one by one ...... :rolleyes: any more dear ?:p :p Shoot them all .

Munish

04-26-2007, 05:13 PM

That's interesting and changes my view on things, particularly the fact that children have different rights depending on which nonimmigrant visa their Parents are on.

It does also complicate things, meaning the article needs a whole structural rethink. The best approach, the way I see things right now, is to separate the issue of the kids (because it is not only E2 kids who are effected) in one article, and the issue of whether E2s should have a path to immigrant status in a separate article.

The worst thing we can do is produce one large article that tries to tackle too many issues (particularly because a lot of people who matter don't have the brain span to concentrate too much). I think the best way forward is to produce a series of articles focused on specific issues in order of Expat's priority on the issues and keep this first one focused purely on the kids (not just E2 kids but kids under various nonimmigrant visas) to see how they can be subject to varying treatment.

v2002

04-26-2007, 05:24 PM

That's interesting and changes my view on things, particularly the fact that children have different rights depending on which nonimmigrant visa their Parents are on.

It does also complicate things, meaning the article needs a whole structural rethink. .................................................. ........................................... (not just E2 kids but kids under various nonimmigrant visas) to see how they can be subject to varying treatment.

Munish I totally agree with you on this approach .Get it rolling:D

DEE F

04-26-2007, 05:55 PM

:D Dee I will explain you with a detail in points .. if you have any Q feel free to Shoot:ME:D

as far as the L1 visa is concerned and the children of that visa(gotta stress here,no kids with me)it is exactly the same for L1 kids as E2 kids in as much their parents started this journey not them,people keep saying the L1 leads to a GC,
*-* Yes DEE it is true.

what if the green card should get refused for whatever reason?????
*_* That is same for anyother visa... sometimes GC gets denied to H1B petions too... and the outcome is the same..GO BACK HOME and RETRY

Also an E2 visa can be extended indefinatley __
*-*Reason they have this provision is because E2 is completely an nonimmigration visa based on YOUR BUSINESS existence.....You stay as long as you have business here " thats why its called a TREATY INVESTOR VISA"...By the way the day US falls back on this treaty with any country this Visa does not exist for the citizens of that country.

an L1 can only be extended for up to 7 years,so therefore if no green card then all the family are forced back to their country of origin,
*-* However L visa is a FIXED term visa available to ALL COUNTRIES irrespective of any trade agreement.....By the way as per the recent changes If your I140 and I485 is filed you can get extention beyond 7 years if the LC is pending or you can use EAD for beyond 7 years... therefore you do not go back.

surely this is just as unfair to the L1 kids as it is to the E2 kids,and what if the parents no longer want to remain in the US what happenes to the kids then,
*-* in this situation nothing changes...What if parents dont want to bring kids to US in first place ?? you see my point? from immigration point of view its a domestic issue not immigration.. they dont tell you what to do with your kids.

I know the E2 cannot lead to a GC yet!!!! But still kids are kids no matter what visa they come in on and should all be given a fair chance,it all seems to be about the E2 kids or am I misreading this,surely
*-* The parents DO KNOW THE NATURE OF THE VISA BEFORE HAND.

not every L1 visa holder gets a green card,what then happens to their children??????????????
*_ the same as H1b visa holder family _ go back home .... come back on H visa again with a gap of one year and TRY YOUR LUCK AGAIN :D

I hope I answered all your Great questions one by one ...... :rolleyes: any more dear ?:p :p Shoot them all . Hi v2002,thank you for your honest answers,after all I did ask someone to please explain it all to me,I still dont get it though:confused: :confused:

Dee xxxx

Munish

04-26-2007, 06:12 PM

Let me have a go at addressing your points with my limited knowledge, but purely in the context of the kids.

as far as the L1 visa is concerned and the children of that visa(gotta stress here,no kids with me)it is exactly the same for L1 kids as E2 kids in as much their parents started this journey not them,people keep saying the L1 leads to a GC,

The kids get screwed either way at the moment in that while they are nonimmigrants they are both subject to age out.

what if the green card should get refused for whatever reason?????

Another example of a situation where the kids are screwed so should have some kind of protection.

Also an E2 visa can be extended indefinatley __

True, but the kids get screwed when they hit 21 so should have some kind of protection.

an L1 can only be extended for up to 7 years,so therefore if no green card then all the family are forced back to their country of origin, surely this is just as unfair to the L1 kids as it is to the E2 kids,and what if the parents no longer want to remain in the US what happenes to the kids then,

Guess who gets screwed again!

I know the E2 cannot lead to a GC yet!!!! But still kids are kids no matter what visa they come in on and should all be given a fair chance,it all seems to be about the E2 kids or am I misreading this,surely not every L1 visa holder gets a green card,what then happens to their children??????????????

I'm not sure! Duh! If you don't my answer by this point you should seek medical attention.

v2002

04-26-2007, 06:14 PM

Hi v2002,thank you for your honest answers,after all I did ask someone to please explain it all to me,I still dont get it though:confused: :confused:
Dee xxxx

Ok Dee thank you for your reply... and I am sure someone else here can explain it better than me in British english LOL let me know when you get it ....:D :D :D :D

DEE F

04-26-2007, 06:25 PM

Let me have a go at addressing your points with my limited knowledge, but purely in the context of the kids.

The kids get screwed either way at the moment in that while they are nonimmigrants they are both subject to age out.

Another example of a situation where the kids are screwed so should have some kind of protection.

True, but the kids get screwed when they hit 21 so should have some kind of protection.

Guess who gets screwed again!

I'm not sure! Duh! If you don't my answer by this point you should seek medical attention.
Hi Munish,:D :D :D what is it "have a go at Dee day" perhaps then I do need medical attention ,cos at the end of the day I see your point and that of V2002 (comments duly noted by the way:D ),kids are kids no matter what the visa and should all be treated the same,and yeh at the end of the day if things dont go right and amendments arent made then yes they are all screwed, perhaps I still dont get it as far as the difference between E2 AND L1 kids,that was my point does it make a difference as to what visa their parents are on ?????????????????????be it E2 OR L1;)

Dee xx

Munish

04-26-2007, 06:33 PM

v2002

04-26-2007, 06:43 PM

DEE F

04-26-2007, 06:45 PM

Sorry Dee, my knowledge is as extensive on yours on this, and so not it's not "have a go at Dee day" since your post is one of the stronger ones on th thread. I just assumed you were asking rhetorical questions and giving us examples of how the kids are left vulnerable.

We need to find out more about the specific differences and protections between kids of different categories so we can appropriate reform proposals. Hi Munish no need to apologise ,it was a joke about having a go,yes as an L1 holder,sometimes I cant see the differences about the plight of the kids they are all going to age out at 21 no matter what the visa,I just felt I had to put it in writing as no one ever seems to mention the kids of L1 visa holders,and in my humble opinion they are jsut as vulnerable as theE2 kids,that is all I was saying,;)

Dee xxx

v2002

04-26-2007, 06:55 PM

sometimes I cant see the differences about the plight of the kids they are all going to age out at 21 no matter what the visa,
Dee xxx

It is so True....welcome to the world of reality ....Unless you have an LPR pending(if your visa allows to file) your child ages out at 21 .. no matter at what age he was brought in and what visa he/she was on.

Infact I think they should make a law ... like they did with ADOPTION law .. that if a child is adopted under the age of 14 by USC he/she do not need to file for citizenship as he/she becomes USC.

Similar oportunity should be available to all kids who enter this country under a certain age.What do you say ? Munish ??? do you think its doable?:rolleyes:

Munish

04-26-2007, 07:20 PM

I agree. Can we have some ideas for reform please (for example eligibility for kids getting LPR status or some other special status)? I want the article not only to highlight the plight of children aging out but also suggestions for reform. I know Byjove posted one and more ideas would be welcome to see what similar or disparate people's views are.

Before we can have this conversation more publicly we also need to have a position for us to propose in the first place. I know this is premature, especially because I don't how it would compare to the position in the DREAM Act, but I would rather have ideas from scratch before comparing to existing provisions. I know that is probably a backwards way of doing it but whatever.

I feel like this is Government consulation, except 20 times faster!

byjove

04-27-2007, 02:15 PM

Your kids do not have to do the pledge....the school needs a note from you to tell them you wish your kids to leave the room or just stand....
But you'll find most kids don't want to be different...so are happy to do it...

Volutary? "yes!" DOing it to fit in and BE American, not standing out and being considered "disrespectful" then it is compulsory.

I know if I told my daughter she didn't HAVE to, there would be a huge upset as she WANTS to, after all this is her home. She doesn't remember England other than it being a nice place to visit for holidays (or in her case to "vacation!"!) And its where Nanny and Grandad live.

(She has even asked where was I born in the USA, she cant fathom how she or any of us were not born here, but we live here) AND SHe has to fake her own accent. Dick Van Dyke school of bad English accents I may add. ;)

Munish

04-27-2007, 02:20 PM

Oh no, not the Dick Van Dyke school! Nope, after that mistake you guys can keep her. LOL. Mind you, everytime I try and do "American" it is just bad! Even my friends who've never been there do a better job than me. LOL.

Susie

04-28-2007, 05:04 AM

Your kids do not have to do the pledge....the school needs a note from you to tell them you wish your kids to leave the room or just stand....
But you'll find most kids don't want to be different...so are happy to do it...

Hi

When my youngest was in school his teacher wanted him to feel welcome so put a Union Jack on the wall and ever day he pledged to the Union Jack, then the US flag,

What a sweet thought the teacher had

Munish

04-28-2007, 10:41 AM

Indeed, that is very thoughtful of her/him!

byjove

04-28-2007, 03:33 PM

AARRHHHH!!! That was VERY sweet! My son's 3rd grade teacher took time to learn some what we call "propa" (Yes! Ment it to be that!!) English like he would ask for the "bin" or mom put things in the "boot" and other words that he would use, and vice-versa "trash" "tardy" (did any one know what that word meant at first? Or am I super blonde?"

Sharon

04-28-2007, 03:58 PM

my E children get upset because their friends on L can work and buy lots of stuff but my children cannot work and we cannot afford to buy them luxuries

byjove

04-28-2007, 04:13 PM

my E children get upset because their friends on L can work and buy lots of stuff but my children cannot work and we cannot afford to buy them luxuries

Well......... I hope you can get them to voice their frustrations on the thread for kids voices that Munish started. Every little or big thing helps.

chris

04-28-2007, 04:38 PM

Can I make a suggestion here.
Is it possible for this thread or perhaps one called 'kids voices', to be constantly on the Todays threads? That way we don't lose the impetus on this important issue. By having say a kids voice, we can always be sure our kids can put their voice to the message we want to spread. The posts by byjove rugrats was great, but I fear they and others will eventually get lost in a thread like this when it is mixed in with all the other stuff we adults rabbit on about. A seperate kids voice would, I believe, allow us all by periodically reading, remind us of what is importamt here.

chris

04-28-2007, 08:49 PM

Hello Punky or whoever is the mechanic on the site?
Houston we have a problem!!!
I put a posting on here today - Saurday. It did not show on Todays posts and actually is detailed as having been posted yesterday. As a result this very important feedback thread has gone into the 'history' section of postings rather than todays where it should be.
I don't whether this a glitch post the recent changes or just someone forgot to change the clock, but can the mechanic man take look please????? Pretty please :notworthy: :notworthy:

Munish

04-29-2007, 12:54 PM

Is it possible for this thread or perhaps one called 'kids voices', to be constantly on the Todays threads? That way we don't lose the impetus on this important issue. By having say a kids voice, we can always be sure our kids can put their voice to the message we want to spread. The posts by byjove rugrats was great, but I fear they and others will eventually get lost in a thread like this when it is mixed in with all the other stuff we adults rabbit on about. A seperate kids voice would, I believe, allow us all by periodically reading, remind us of what is importamt here.

I agree, particulalry in relation to the article regarding the kids voices on which Byjove's rugrats posted. We still need more postings on that please because I am still using that thread for this article!

However, it's not as important for this thread to always appear on today's post as I am constantly tracking it anyway and once the article is complete and posted to the articles section the thread is no longer needed. If need be, Punky can add a cross reference on the bottom from my first post on that thread to this thread after the article is complete. (for example, "see also http://www.expatsvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1986 for a related thread discussing this age outs and www.http://www.expatsvoice.org/forum/articles... [this last link is a deadlink at the moment as the article is not complete] for the article on age outs)"

After that I will start a new thread for next article, which will be completed in a similar way. Consultation followed by the end product.

Susie

05-02-2007, 10:07 PM

Munish

05-02-2007, 10:11 PM

Susie, would you mind posting some rules on this thread regarding the comparisons between L and E children and may other children. It just makes it easier for me. I am aiming to get the second draft done by Saturday. After that it should be only a couple of days by the time the final version is complete in principle.

Then we can look at the next step.

Kitty

05-05-2007, 11:01 PM

Hows it going Mun, what an intersting thread

anniefromessex

05-06-2007, 01:59 AM

Mun, stupid thing I know but what if child was brought out here at a very early age, but say, Jack's parents' families were elderly when Jack and parents left the country and had since died, his parents had no other siblings etc etc, where does Jack go?!!!! He knows nothing of the UK or wherever, most of his life has been spent here, this is the only life he knows!

I know if it was one of my kids with the above scenario, then there is no way on Gods earth that I would let him go (and I won't say back, because he knows nothing of that country) to a country that he doesn't know, so where does that leave me, hubby and perhaps siblings born here! It just doesn't bear thinking about and is soo inhumane.

God, this Jack has become a person to me and I feel so very sorry for him. Okay, in this day and age youngsters like to travel, see the world and for some Jack's, leaving and seeing his birthplace and where his parents lived might be a good thing. You also have the other Jack's who are not quite so confident and what does he do back in England. He has no relatives, no friends and really no rights - where does that leave him?

Sorry stupid I know but very real all the same. Even my granddaughter who was 8 months old when she came here and 2 when they were deported, could not adjust to life back in England. Even now she talks about America and her home here. I remember a time when they had been back to England and when they came back she went running into her house saying "my house, my house, my lovely big house" and went running from room to room touching everything, and they say it doesn't affect little ones - of course it does, just as it could affect 21 year olds!!!

Okay, over and out.

Love Anniexxx

anniefromessex

05-06-2007, 02:24 AM

Just one other thing Mun, when these aged out kids return to the UK, they are not entitled to a thing, as they are not illegal!!!

My niece and nephew, and indeed my own son who have travelled the world and were out of the country for a year or more, are treated very badly on their return and aren't given the same treatment as illegals. Sad world, ain't it.

Love Anniexxx

Kriz1

05-06-2007, 02:44 AM

Hi

When my youngest was in school his teacher wanted him to feel welcome so put a Union Jack on the wall and ever day he pledged to the Union Jack, then the US flag,

What a sweet thought the teacher had

We have a flag for every kids from a different country in my sons old schools....not that there are that many...most are American born...

Munish

05-06-2007, 06:59 AM

Thanks Annie. Will consider Jack's new circumstances in the redraft. I wanted to use Jack etc. on purpose rather than using simply numbers, theories and facts to make his seem real. I can't believe that approach actually works.

Kitty and everyone the second draft is imminent. Took longer than expected because I am still trying to complete a chapter in my book.

kirtida8

05-06-2007, 12:27 PM

My eldest - who has now aged out and is back in the UK - was sent a letter "drafting" him into the National Guard ( I think that this is supposed to be standard for all kids in the US over 18 but i could be wrong). I had to send in a letter explaining the reason why he would not be joining ( you are also allowed to defer if you are a conscientious objector or for health reasons). Seems a little hypocritical to me that they can expect our kids to defend their homeland, but yet deny them any rights to live here once they turn 21! :confused: I have other expat friends here who have had to do the same, and am waiting for the same notice for my now 17yr old ( I am trying to get him to stay home long enough to put in his tuppence worth - but you know how important a social life is to a teenager LOL). He is bright and a good sportsman, and insists that he is going to get a scholarship to be able to go to college here - his teachers have told him that they will help? I have no idea if this will happen for the reasons you have already mentioned - but he wants to complete his education here so will have to find a way. It is also unfair that the kids do not get the opportunity to get a SSN and so are eligible to get a job to help pay their way through college in the same way as American kids can. Maybe it could be temporary in the same way as the spouse's work permit is?
Just food for thought IMHO

Munish

05-07-2007, 01:49 PM

The Rights of Nonimmigrant Children at Age Out

The Impact US Immigration Laws on Children

The impact of US immigration laws on children generally is profound. This is due to the fact these laws are complex and are written substantially with adults in mind. Overall the immigrant laws try to balance various and sometimes competing aims including (but in no particular order):

Improving the economy by providing access to skilled foreign workers and investors;
Ensuring family unification, for citizens, permanent residents and nonimmigrant residents;
Promoting diversity, such as through the lottery program; and
Maintaining the security of the nation, through border controls, immigration checks etc.

This article focuses primarily on the issue of family reunification and looks at one specific area in which the US immigration system is failing; the rights of children. One of the intriguing aspects of US laws is the concept of age outs. This separates to categories of children; those under the age of 21 and those who have attained the age of 21.

For example, in relation to immigrant petitions where a family member is being sponsored, the petition may also apply to the spouse and children of the family member being sponsored, but only where the children are under 21 years of age. This already causes problems because families inevitably split. Immigrant visa processing can take many years depending on the category of sponsorship and, while the petition is pending, many children age out. There can even be, and often are, situations where siblings are split because the younger ones can immigrate by the time the petition is complete (because they are still under 21), but the older siblings cannot (because they are reached 21 while the immigrant petition is pending). The Child Status Protection Act of 2002 aims to address this issue, but does not deal with all circumstances and is not always appropriately implemented causing many families to split.

Another example, and which this article focuses on, relates to nonimmigrant visa holders. Many nonimmigrant visa categories enable the foreign national (“alien”) visa holder to bring their family with them, including their spouse and children (who are under 21). A child could come to the USA, including when they are babies, be brought up in the USA but when they reach 21, unless they have another right to remain in the country, they are forced to go to their country of citizenship or any other country willing to invite them. However, they would have to leave their home and their family in the USA.

Children as Derivative Nonimmigrant Visa Holders with no Direct Path to Permanent Residency

US immigration laws enable many aliens to come to the USA for various purposes. This includes:

Investing in the USA, either directly through an E2 visa or through an expansion of a non-US business into the USA through an L1 visa (which enables intercompany transferees);
Employment opportunities, so US employers could petition an alien on a nonimmigrant basis (for example H-1B (specialty occupations), H-1B1 (Chile/Singapore Free Trade Agreement) and H-1C (nurses)) or multinational businesses with US operations could transfer an alien to its operations in the USA through an L1 visa;
Aliens with extraordinary ability or achievement through an O1 visa and other workers to assist in the performance of O1 workers through an O2 visa; and
Religious workers through an R-1 visa.

The above examples may be the basis on which aliens enter and reside in the USA for a long-term basis, although they are not by any means exhaustive. Such nonimmigrant visa holder may also bring their spouse and/or children with them as nonimmigrant holders. These visas for spouses and children are known as “derivative” visas. Such derivative visas are only valid for as long as the “principal” visa is valid. So, for example, if an H-1B employee loses their job without getting a new job, not only do they lose their visa status but so do the derivatives visa holders.

At first glance this seems to be a reasonable state of affairs. However, there is a unique, but not uncommon, problem that results from “aging out,” i.e. where children who were under 21 come to the USA but lose their derivative visa status on their 21st birthday. They must leave the USA, in effect their home, unless they have another basis to stay home. They will also be split from their younger siblings who will be subject to same problem when they turn 21, unless of course they were born in the USA in which case they are US citizens as provided by the US constitution.

Jack, Mary and Sundeep

Consider this. Two children, Jack and Sundeep, come to the USA from the UK as children, because their respective parents are nonimmigrant visa holders. They have no choice in the matter because separation from their families is clearly not an option.

Jack lives in Detroit, Michigan and lived there ever since he arrived in the USA as a derivative visa holder during his kindergarten years. Sundeep lives in Long Island, New York and arrived in the USA as a derivative visa holder when he was 13. Jack and Sundeep both went to high school in their local areas. Jack went to a State funded school and Sundeep went to a privately-funded school. Both Jack and Sundeep have fully established their lives in the USA.

Jack remembers only his US life since he came at such a young age. He embraces his new life, develops friendships and fully integrates into US society by being schooled under the US system. He has an American accent since he was five. Culturally, he is American in every way. He loves his Pizza and has been a massive, hangs out with his school friends, loves watching films and playing sports. He does very in school. He maintains a 4.0 GPA, is captain of the football team has been elected class President. He aspires to go to university. He wants in particular to go to the University of Michigan and play for the Michigan Wolverines. He is smart enough and good enough to do both.

Sundeep came to the USA much later. He has clear memories of his life in the UK. At first he found it very difficult to adjust to the new system. He had no friends and had to work hard to build friends. He loves soccer and was a West Ham supporter in the UK. He continues to be so. However, people aren’t into soccer in his school. However, by the time he turns 15, Sundeep has made a lot of effort to change. He is fully comfortable with the school system, has grown to understand and love basketball and football, and has made many friends. He is an above student academically, but does not really have any aspirations to go to university.

Jack sees himself as American in every way. Sundeep also sees himself as an American but realizes and appreciates he has some differences giving him a unique US-UK-Indian cultural identity. Both fully support America in every way including singing the national anthem whenever the opportunity arises such as in school.

Jack also has younger sister, Mary. She was born in the USA and so is a US citizen by constitutional right. However both siblings have very different rights. When Jack turns 18, he can’t vote, but Mary can when she turns 18. Jack can’t join the military, but Mary can. It’s very strange how two people brought up in the same environment can be very different.

Limited Solutions to Aging Out

Adjustment to Permanent Residency Status

The age out problem can be partly circumvented in various but specific ways. However, this means children who have been in the USA for long periods before turning 21 can be subject to very different treatment, simply based on the type of visa their Parent(s) entered the USA on and the type of visa they currently hold.

For example L1 visa holders and employee visa holders may change their status to permanent residency. Their employer may later sponsor them for a new employment-based immigrant visa and once this is processed an employee may adjust, with his or her spouse and children (under 21) to permanent resident status.

Most E-2 visa holders do not have a basis to convert to permanent residency. One rare exception may be where the business expands to an investment value of $500,000 in low employment areas or $1million in all other areas and has 10 permanent employees comprised of US citizens and/or permanent residents. In these circumstances the E-2 visa holder may adjust to permanent residency on the basis of an EB-5 application. How many businesses in the USA owned by foreign national meet these criteria? Very few! Another rare exception may be where an E-2 visa holder is a single parent and marries a US citizen.

However, the permanent residency solution is exceptional. They do not help the children whose parents remain in nonimmigrant status. Further, even where a Parent does adjust to permanent residency status, it does not help children who already reached 21 before an immigrant petition is approved.

Jack, Mary and Sundeep

Sundeep’s Dad works in a business, which is 40% owned by him. It is a multinational home furnishing’s business, which in the USA employees 5 American employees to design and craft furniture for sale. He is in L1 visa holder (and Sundeep therefore is an L2 visa holder). After arriving in the USA, the business sponsored Sundeep’s Dad for employment-based permanent residency as managing director. Sundeep and his Mother were derivatives on this application. The petition was ultimately approved and Sundeep and his family adjusted status thereafter before he turned 21. Sundeep eventually became a citizen and does various jobs.

Jack and Mary’s parents are E-2 visa holders. Their business is a large grocery store, which employs over 25 employees on both a full-time and part-time basis. The store is rented, but the business is very successful and is worth about $450,000.

Jack has graduated high school and is very ambitious. His dream was to go to the University of Michigan. Unfortunately he was not eligible for a full scholarship because most scholarships available are only for permanent residents and citizens. Fortunately, he gained a partial football scholarship to play for the Michigan Wolverines. His Parent’s pay for the remaining tuition thanks to their successful business. Jack is in his final year of his degree and is majoring in Maths and Economics, and is currently on a 3.9 GPA in the top 98th percentile. He is 20 years old. Upon graduation, Jack wanted to serve in the US military but his attorney advised him could not because he is not a permanent resident.

He is now considering his options. He had planned to go to law school after military service, but is now deciding whether to accelerate this plan or find other work first (knowing he cannot qualify for most scholarships and competitive domestic loans). Ironically, his sister Mary has no problem. She is a constitutionally considered an American citizen. She has the ability to go college and being smart, has received scholarships and low interest loans, saving her many thousands of dollars. She also works part-time to fund her social life.

Education

Another potential solution for nonimmigrant children is through education. As children with derivative visas they are entitled to be educated in the USA to high school level, whether through a State funded school or a privately funded school. Once this is complete a child may decide to go onto college to pursue degree level studies or equivalent studies at a higher education institution.

If a child is approaching 21 or has already passed 21, he or she may apply for a course of study in a US school or college. For academic studies the F1 visa would provide a solution. For vocational studies the M1 visa would provide a solution. However, even with this, there might be a problem for a person who left their US home and has gone back to their country or residence or citizenship because they have turned 21. Sometimes this is referred to colloquially as the “home country,” which is an insulting turn of phrase for a person who has spent most of their life in the USA, and therefore will be referred to in this article as country or citizenship or residence.

To be eligible for most nonimmigrant visas (i.e. those that do not have dual intent or similar status) a person generally has to prove ties with their country of citizenship or residence. Specifically he or she has to prove at the time of applying for the visa (including M1 or F1 visas) that he or she:

Has a residence abroad;
Has no immediate intention of abandoning that residence; and
Intends to depart from the USA upon completion of the course of study.

Fortunately, in relation to (1), the FAM guidelines recognize that in relation to F1/M1 visas,

it is natural that the student does not possess ties of property, employment, family obligation, and continuity of life typical of [more short-term visa applicants such as a] B visa applicants. These ties are typically weakly held by student applicants, as the student is often single, unemployed, without property, and is at the stage in life of deciding and developing his or her future plans. This general condition is further accentuated in light of the student’s proposed extended absence from his or her homeland. [9 FAM 41.61 N5.2]

However, there is still another problem. The consular officer must still also be satisfied with (2) and (3). Fortunately, the consular officer has to recognize an intention of abandoning residence of your country of citizenship and residence is only important at the time of application and that “this intention is subject to change or even likely to change is NOT a sufficient reason to deny a visa.” 9 FAM 41.61 N5.2. Despite these considerations, if the consular officer is aware the rest of the visa applicant’s family is in the USA from the required disclosures on the visa application, this is evidence which may cause denial of the visa.

Jack

Unfortunately, on graduation Jack could not find work in the USA. He wanted to remain in Detroit to be with his family, but it is suffering from high unemployment. He also had three offers from three banks in New York before graduation to work as a stock trader. He accepted one and they were willing to sponsor Jack with a H1-B nonimmigrant employment visa. However, when the employer submitted the application and fee, it transpired they could not sponsor him. The H1-B cap for 60,000 visas had been reached for 2008 in just three days. 150,000 applications were made and so the USCIS selected 60,000 on a random basis. Unfortunately, Jack was one of the unlucky 90,000 and the application was returned to the employer unprocessed. Even more unfortunate, the employer was unwilling to sponsor Jack with an employment-based permanent residency petition.

Jack is now in the UK, his country of citizenship, despite the fact his Parents and sister remain in the USA and will continue to be so. Jack’s sister could sponsor Jack for a family-based immigrant visa after she turns 21, but she is still only 18 and so cannot do so under current laws. Even if she was 21, Jack would have to wait about 15 years. Jack, therefore resigns to a new life in London. Fortunately, he works in Canary Wharf, London, for a major bank as an analyst.

During this time he is not happy. He is out of touch with people in the UK culturally speaking, suffers from depression, but despite this does his best to adjust. He contemplates coming to the USA on student visa to do law school. In the future he applies and gets offers to do a JD in Yale, Columbia, New York, Georgetown and Duke.

However, if the laws stay as they were at the start of 2007, Jack knows he will have problems. He has to have the intention to leave the USA upon completion of his studies. However, in his heart he wants to stay in the USA but realizes the law does not allow this. Knowing this, he can apply for a Fulbright scholarship and will likely be ones and successful so that his tuition fees and living expenses are paid for in full. However, the terms state he must return on completion of his degree. If this fails Jack, in applying for an F1 visa, has to prove he can pay for and in fact has the funds to pay for the degree and the living expenses and so would have to wait until he is able obtain this money somehow. This is particularly onerous when you consider a law degree at the above listed law schools costs approximately or more than $35,000 in tuition fees each year alone.

The Need for Reform for the Children

The DREAM Act (H.R. 1275)

The DREAM Act (The Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act) is currently a Bill pending in US Congress, which would provide wide ranging help, including to illegal immigrant students. Among its aims are to:

Repeal section 505 of the Illegal immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, which limits States’ ability to provide in-state tuition to illegal immigrant students (section 3);
Provide “conditional permanent resident status” to persons who qualify under the proposed DREAM Act (section 5);

To qualify, a person would have to establish all of the following (under section 4(a)):

Being “physically present” in the USA for a continuous period of at least five years immediately before the enactment of the Dream Act; “brief, causal, and innocent absences” from the USA to do not prevent this condition being satisfied;
The person arrived in the USA (whether legally or illegally), before they reached the age of 16;
“Good moral character,” which is includes having no criminal record or drugs charges against them (subject to possible waivers of this condition); and
At the time of application, the person “has been admitted to an institution of higher education” in the USA, or has earned a high school diploma from or a general education development certificate (GED) in the USA.

The residence right provided would be a six year “conditional permanent resident status” (section 5(a)), which would provide similar (but not all) benefits of a green card, including the ability to travel outside the USA for limited amount of time. During this period (and subject to a “hardship exception” (section 5(d)(2)), the resident holder must have either:

Acquired a degree from a higher education institution in the USA;
Completed two years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor’s degree or higher in the USA; or
Served in the US military for two years and, if discharged, has received an honorable discharge (section 5(d)(1)).

The conditional permanent resident may apply for removal of the “conditional” status of the permanent residency status between six months before the six year period arrives and two years of the end of the conditional status period (section 5(c)(d)). The time used in “conditional” status may also be used for naturalization purposes, but the “conditional” status must first be removed (section 5(e)).

The Bill has been introduced various times before without ending in enactment during the:

107th Congress in 2001 as H.R. 1918 and S. 1291;
108th Congress as H.R. 1684 and S. 1545; and
109th Congress as H.R 5131 and S. 2075.

Currently (in the 110th Congress), the Bill has been introduced in the House as H.R. 1275 and Senate as S.774. It is difficult to assess whether this will end in enactment bearing in mind the previous failed attempts. However, in this Democratic majority Congress there is more of a sense of urgency for comprehensive immigration reform.

Jack and Other Children Not Covered by the DREAM Act

Sadly, the Dream Act will not help Jack who is out of resident status immediately before the enactment of the Dream Act as he aged out and returned to his country of citizenship (the UK). Similarly, all children who aged out of derivative nonimmigrant status would have the same problem as Jack. The DREAM Act if it is passed, will still fail to address children who:

Entered the USA after 16 years of age; or
Have already aged out and have abandoned their residence in the USA.

The Need for Further Reform and the Strange Benefit of the STRIVE Act for Illegal Immigrant Children

The DREAM Act should be extended to enable those specified above to also apply for conditional permanent residence. Under the STRIVE Act, illegal immigrants would be provided with a direct path to permanent residency and eventually citizenship.

Ironically, a person who entered the USA illegally at anytime from his 16th birthday and remains in the USA would qualify under the STRIVE Act to remain in the USA permanently, provided other conditions are met. But a legal nonimmigrant person, who has been in the USA from the same age and for the same duration as his or her illegal counterpart would not be so protected. What a peculiar turn of events!

Jack would not receive any benefit under the upcoming comprehensive immigration reform to apply directly and on his own behalf for permanent residency. For a country that has educated Jack from the beginning (through the taxes of Americans and other residents) it is strange that:

He is not allowed to live in his home with his friends and family automatically;
The USA invested so many resources in the development and cultivation of Jack’s talents (tens of thousands of dollars in fact), but Jack is unable to automatically return to give back for his achievements such as through taxes on a potentially high income; and
The UK has taken the direct benefit, since Jack works in the USA, without having spent any money on his education and development.

The bottom line is immigration needs to be comprehensive, not only to promote family reunification, but also to ensure the USA does not lose out on the best talent in an increasingly competitive global economy.

Munish

05-07-2007, 01:54 PM

I believe this is a substantially improved draft. In particular it takes into account the DREAM Bill.

Please provide feedback once again, including comments for improvement, areas I may have missed, areas that require clarification, and anything else.

I hope this takes into account all comments previously posted.

Please ignore comments on punctuation, spelling and grammar.This has not been proof read. The next draft can include comments on grammar, etc.

peter gold

05-07-2007, 02:31 PM

Munish
Great job.
All my life I have had to read volumes of material, and find that the shorter factual keeps the readers attention as opposed to the longer detailed document.
It may be hard to effect but consider reducing the size of this so the reader does not loose concentration.
This is not criticsm merely food for thought!!
Keep up the good work

Munish

05-07-2007, 02:36 PM

Thanks Peter,

I think you are right about the length. It's because of its length I could not asked to proof read it yet. Being concise was originally my intention, so I'll see what I can do with that.

Munish

05-07-2007, 07:38 PM

Also does anyone know the name of the Act related to children. V2002, I think you mentioned it to another member on the aging out thread, but I can't remember it. It may be relevant to the article as well.

Thanks

Munish

DEE F

05-07-2007, 09:27 PM

Well done Munish,a brilliant article,and very well written,will things change for the kids of all non-immigrant visas,who can say,we will see.But an absolutely first class attempt.

Dee xxx

kirtida8

05-07-2007, 10:26 PM

Susie

05-08-2007, 01:04 AM

Munish - just a thought but have you sent a draft of this to brokenfamily? They are supposed to be meeting with senators etc on similar proposals for change. I agree with the others in that it is a well written article that is to the point and covers all the main areas that we worry about. Well done!

Hi

I agree Mun is a great asset to expats voice. I had a very long chat with him today talking through various ideas and issues. Beleive me he has got his work cut out after our conversation. Mun is working so hard for the benefit of us all and would like to say a big thank you from all, especially me.

There are many other organizations expatsvoice is talking with to see if we can work together in some way. The problem is we all have differing and legislative ideas but maybe we can each do a letter supporting each others efforts and ideas which may be sent jointly to Senators etc.,

Munish

05-08-2007, 06:01 AM

Many thanks all.

Sue I said, although the article is in draft form, feel free to distribute it to whom you think it can make a difference.

Brokenfamily's and other organizations' reaction to this thread would be welcome.