News Article: Stricter US Travel for British Muslims

[Munish]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/03/nvisa03.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

US pushes for visa control on Pakistani Britons
By Alex Spillius in Washington and Philip Johnston
Last Updated: 3:36am BST 03/05/2007

Your view: Should US refuse to admit British Pakistanis without visas?

Travel restrictions could be imposed by America on 800,000 British citizens of Pakistani origin because of concerns about terrorism, it emerged yesterday.

The move has been prompted by fears that British Muslim men were behind several major bomb plots.

On Monday, five men - four with Pakistani backgrounds - were convicted of plotting to attack a shopping centre, a nightclub and other targets with home-made fertiliser bombs. Last summer, MI5 foiled an alleged plot for suicide attacks on transatlantic aircraft.

The Americans have been concerned that their principal security risk could actually come from Britain, with whom they operate a visa waiver scheme. Since 2004, Britons travelling to the US do not need a visa if they have a machine-readable passport issued since 1991.

Michael Chertoff, the US homeland security secretary, has reportedly told the Government that British Pakistanis should apply for a visa before travelling to America.

The Foreign Office said last night any such plan would be resisted although the Americans would be entitled to introduce a new visa regime unilaterally.

Last month, Mr Chertoff told The Daily Telegraph that America was vulnerable to Muslim citizens of Britain and other European countries mounting terrorist attacks. Terrorists such as the four July 7 bombers - three of whom were of Pakistani origin - could have used the waiver scheme to enter the US.

"We need to build layers of protection and I don't think we totally want to rely upon the fact that a foreign government is going to know that one of their citizens is suspicious and is going to be coming here," he said. Bruce Riedel, senior fellow at the American think-tank the Brookings Institution, echoed his concerns.

Omar Khyam, the leader of the plotters convicted on Monday, was, he said, "the classic UK-Pakistani connection that al-Qa'eda has focused on since 9/11. His UK passport gives him international nobility. His training at a camp run for Kashmiris by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency gives him expertise. Al-Qa'eda gives him direction."

An estimated 400,000 trips a year are made by Britons of Pakistani origin to their ancestral homeland.

A Foreign Office spokesman said last night that any attempt to divide British citizens along ethnic lines would cause a massive diplomatic row.

"The Muslim community, including those of Pakistani origin, are an important part of our society and we would oppose strongly any proposal to single them out in response to the actions of terrorists," he said.

"We are in close touch with the US about entry clearance and they are aware of our view that changes to the visa waiver programme could cause economic damage to both our countries without materially enhancing the security controls over immigration. The visa waiver programme is certainly not a 'loophole', given the close co-operation between our security agencies."

The Foreign Office said many British Muslims were already put off travelling to America for fear of an unwelcome reception. People of Pakistani or south Asian background are routinely picked out for special "secondary" searches and checks.

The visa talks, disclosed by the New York Times, are believed to have been under way for months. Mr Chertoff met John Reid, the Home Secretary, in London last month for what were thought to have been discussions about the waiver scheme.

The Homeland Security Department is understood to be waiting until Mr Blair, a friend and ally of President George W Bush, leaves office before revealing its plans.

It would be almost impossible to establish who was of Pakistani background.

Anyone over 60 would have been born in India, because the state of Pakistan did not come into being before Partition in 1947.

Shahid Malik, Labour MP for Dewsbury, said: "This idea is ill-conceived and ultimately it will probably prove counter-productive."

[SHEILA 13]

Thanks Mun,this article is very interesting as this may effect my family coming over to visit.
As my Dad was Indian born before the partiton in 47.

[punky]

I guess Mr Chertoff has never heard of Richard Reid, Germaine Lindsay or Chechneya then?

When will they learn? Since when has racial profiling ever worked?

[punky]

Thanks Mun,this article is very interesting as this may effect my family coming over to visit.
As my Dad was Indian born before the partiton in 47.

I don't think you'll have a prob as India is entirely different, and mostly Hindu anyways. That's if the POE guys know the difference, of course.

[Munish]

On a slightly different note, discrimination against Muslims is worse in India than Western countries. For example, in Mumbai there are new condos but some have a policy of not selling to Muslims. Some employers won't give jobs to Muslims wearing a beard (which makes me wander how that's different to Sikhs).

I saw this on Dispatches on Channel 4 a few days ago, which about the darker side of the Indian economic boom.

[SHEILA 13]

My Dad was a Muslim and very proud to be.
I have spoken with members of my family and they said they wouldnt bother coming here as the rules and regulations etc to get here are just not worth the hassle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kriz1]

If you're British you're British....end of story.....

[floridapete]

If you're British you're British....end of story.....


Well, er, maybe not !

If you are Nothern Irish you are British, but America sees you as Irish for the purposes of the Green Card Lottery. So N.Irish are allowed to enter, even though the English, Welsh and Scots are not !

Go figure !!

[kirtida8]

Punky - in my experience, no they cannot tell the difference as they go by the colour of your skin!
Having said that - most people here now think of me as being Mexican and immediately assume I can speak spanish!!! :(?

[Munish]

Punky - in my experience, no they cannot tell the difference as they go by the colour of your skin!
Having said that - most people here now think of me as being Mexican and immediately assume I can speak spanish!!! :(?

My Parents have also had that experience.

[Kriz1]

I was always taken to be Pakistani or Indian in the UK....now I'm South American or Native American...my grandmother was South American and my son had he got our black hair would look like a Mexican bandit...

[anniefromessex]

I am not a rascist person, believe you me, and I know people who are Muslims but live with white people and are given a hard time when entering this country, heck even their parents give them a hard time. I do understand America's need for security and it is such a shame that these kids of Pakistani parents who were probably born and brought up in England with all it has to offer should decide that they hate the West. Okay, hate us, but just take yourself off to your homeland and live the life they live there, from what I can see a very simple hand to mouth existence in lots of cases, but no they want the creature comforts too much but denounce it with every breath they take. I feel sorry for their parents who oftentimes are shocked that their offspring should turn out the way they have.

Kirtida said something in a post the other night about England and their diversity and the streets being paved with gold. Englands streets are not paved with gold, it is the ordinary hardworking taxpayers who make it seem as though our streets are paved with gold, and the Government are sooo wrong to bleed our citizens dry and do not know which way to turn next in order to enhance the coffers for these people who bleed our society dry.

Yes, England has become a very diverse nation, nothing wrong with that, but along with this diversity has come crime, shootings, rapes, murders. I for one wish we could all live in harmony whatever creed you are - but oftentimes it is the very people who scream rascism who are the problem.

Sorry to be on my soapbox, but because of these people the likes of us bear the brunt of it and it is not fair.

Love Anniexxx

[DEE F]

Yes, England has become a very diverse nation, nothing wrong with that, but along with this diversity has come crime, shootings, rapes, murders. I for one wish we could all live in harmony whatever creed you are - but oftentimes it is the very people who scream rascism who are the problem.(quote from Annie)

How very true Annie,I have never seen such hatred amongst the younger Muslim community,there are places where I used to live that you would not venture after dark,and that is a fact,and their parents normally have to sit back helplessly and watch,these are the Muslims that get all Muslims tarred with the same brush,and you are right again totaly unfair,where does this hatred come from I wonder is it in bred, is it propaganda from the extreme Muslim societies i dont know,what I do know is that majority of the Muslim communities are as law abiding as you or I,and the minority are the trouble makers,such a shame we should be able to live in harmony,but we know that cannot be,whatever happened to integration,we are as far away from that now than we ever where,but whose fault is it?????? I f they hate the west so much then I agree why dont they go where they feel most comfortable,unfortunately you cant have your cake and eat it,some one has got to start drawing the line somewhere.

Dee xx

[britcan]

I think the question one should ask is this

English or Pakistani? How would this group of Brits feel if their 'Homeland' was bombed by Britain- what would the answer be- are you British or Pakistani.

What I mean is that if you are born in Britain then you should be loyal to the UK, whilst respecting your ancestry, should you not?

Its like me being a Canadian but born in Scotland, I would answer that I am Canadian not Scottish, as I have assumed my new country and the identity therein.

[DEE F]

I think the question one should ask is this

English or Pakistani? How would this group of Brits feel if their 'Homeland' was bombed by Britain- what would the answer be- are you British or Pakistani.

What I mean is that if you are born in Britain then you should be loyal to the UK, whilst respecting your ancestry, should you not?

Its like me being a Canadian but born in Scotland, I would answer that I am Canadian not Scottish, as I have assumed my new country and the identity therein.

Good point Britcan,definately food for thought there,makes you wonder doesnt it:confused:

Dee xx

[anniefromessex]

How true Britcan, we can all see it the question is, "why can't they".

Love Anniexx

[Grumpy]

good article and thread, does make you wonder and if this would cause race problems in the uk

[Munish]

If you are Nothern Irish you are British, but America sees you as Irish for the purposes of the Green Card Lottery. So N.Irish are allowed to enter, even though the English, Welsh and Scots are not !

If you Northern Irish you are not British. Northern Ireland (NI) is separate entity from Great Britain (GB). Even our passports say "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." What is strange is how the US does not process applications as United Kingdom but separates the terrotories of GB and NI. I guess it's historical - this policy reflects sympathy with the old IRA movement. In practice NI is no more or less independent than Scotland.

As for all other comments it would be a real shame if the USA decide to go down this road and I cannot see their argument in any case.

First, you would think, with the technology and intelligence available this is unnecessary. Surely MI5, the police and other intelligence are "observing" would be terrorists and so if they decide to fly to foreign countries, that information should be passed on to the appropriate authorities to let them decide whether to let them pass POE or deport them.

Second, having to apply for a visa is not going to stop people from carrying out terrorist attacks if they are determined. Yes, visas keep a record of who comes in and out, but I thought that already happens including under the visa waiver program in any case with all the forms we have to fill before entry. If you look at these young radicalised Muslims who are determined to carry out an attack in the USA, their reaction is not going to be to scratch their heads and say, "Damn, how can we carry out these attacks now, we have to apply for visas!"

I don't know that this will fuel any more racism than already exists. I think Muslims generally are frustrated many of the senseless policies that make them scapegoats and have become resigned to them as they would to this. As for the radicalised Muslims, they'll use every excuse under the sun to justify their actions and this will only be one more to there millions of reasons they already have.

At the same time if you have one community who lives in one area and are exposed to no other, this creates exclusion and is what harbours the environment for potential racism. All this riots tend to happen only in areas where there is no integration, where Muslims live among themselves and everyone else lives in another area.

With this in mind I am less sympathetic to the Parents (if I am in fact sympathetic at all). They may not be radicalised, but many chose the option not to integrate and this is the result, and hence made their communities vulnerable to radicalisation, which is now so large that it has not only affected Muslims in those communities, but those in other areas as well.

I had another point I wanted to make but I forgot. Maybe someone else will make a post that reminds me.

[Munish]

Just remembered. It's the whole issue of visas for religious workers. It's far to easy nowadays. I should have become a Guru and for a couple of years and applied for a religious worker based green card. LOL

However, more seriously this should now be abolished or amended so that it is subject to stricter admission requirements and conditions after admission. For example, any preaching that a particular religion is superior to any other should be banned and where this is broken it should be subject to punishment, including if necessary deportation and ineligibility to apply for a visa under this category in the future.

[kirtida8]

Hi Annie,
I think you misunderstood my point about "the streets being paved with gold" for many who want to come there. Believe me when I know that this is not the case - but unfortunately this is still a common misconception in poorer countries where they see their "foreign" residing relatives living a life of comparative luxury to their own hand to mouth existence. No matter how much you may tell them that you have to work 3 times as hard as they do, or that the "wealth" is merely a result of a great exchange rate - all they see is that you have more materially than they do. That is why so many try to find a way to either the UK or the US.
Although I was born in India, I was raised in England - and that to me is home, same goes for my kids.
I too disagree with minorities living in their own little enclaves - and this includes the Chinese - and refusing to integrate into the rest of the community or learn the language of the country that they have emigrated to.This just helps to perpetrate racism. "When in Rome..." as the saying goes.
As far as extremists go..this cannot just be confined to Muslims. There are extremists in all religious communities, and the leaders seem to do very little to quell them. No religion tells its followers to annihilate those who disagree with its teachings - but extremists dont really care about that fact.
The words of John Lennon's "Imagine" spring to mind, IMHO

[Munish]

Yes, you're right Kirtida8; radicalisation is not confined to Muslims.

As a digression to the article above, at least with radicals you can see the racism first hand and clearly identify it. What is equally of concern to me, if not more so, is institutional racism.

For example, the caste system in Hindu cultures is the souce of so much racism, prejudice and social injustice. As a "brahmin" I am apparently what some people regard as the "highest ranked" among Hindus. What a load of nonsense! Unfortunately some people believe in it. Others will say it is wrong but live to certain traditions and are unwilling to escape from the traditions developed as a result of the caste system.

"Lower caste," "non caste" and other religions are discriminated against by so called higher caste Hindus (for example, employers not employing them, new apartment refusing to sell to them etc). The policies designed to change this are just a drop in the Ocean. It will be many many generations before we are rid of racism and social injustice if at all.

Although a digression of the thread, thought this would interesting to add to the thread.

[Munish]

Was just listening to Condi Rice in a press conference. She referred to the EU three as "Germany, France and Great Britain." This is not correct. The EU three is Germany, France and the United Kingdom (i.e. GB and NI).

You'd think that the foreign secretary of the world's most important country in international affairs would know that.

[kirtida8]

Totally agree with you there Munish. The caste system is horrendous and should be done away with. Why can a person not be judged simply as a fellow human being instead of by colour, class or wealth even. When we bleed - is our blood not still red?? :mad: I am sorry to acknowledge that my parents do still go by this outdated mode of classification and have witnessed them wash their hands and clothes if they accidentally came into contact with an "untouchable" back in India. My refusal to conform to their more restrictive traditions is what has finally led to an irreparable rift. This is not to say that I don't respect my heritage - I see a difference and want to embrace the best parts of being a Hindu, whilst feel that some aspects are no longer valid in todays society. Although I was confirmed when at school - so does that now make me a Christian?:confused: ;) Anyway, I feel that I am a member of the human race - and dont need to be defined by any religion, although I do believe in a higher power.

[kirtida8]

:rofl: Since when has this Government ever known anything about the rest of the world? I am referring to classic Bushisms as well as to Rumsfeld and Cheney here. :D

[Kriz1]

A lot of my family have been Pagan going back hundreds of years...so we are disliked by almost everyone....
My Nan was Pagan...my mum Church of England...(she just pick that one out of thin air while in hospital having me)....my father is Catholic my Uncles are jewish...my Aunt is a Jewish /Muslim from Palestine...(they did all get on there at one time for that to happen)....my other aunt believes there are no Gods...we had unusual Christmas times....:)

[peter gold]

...."May you and your God go with you" said by Dave Allen UK comedian and he never spoke a truer word!!

[OberonSH]

In the town I work in the North East of England there is a large Indian population, and unfortunately there have been problems, due mainly to a hardcore of that population who refuse to intergrate with the rest of the community. There was a piece in the news not ling back about how much public money is spent tranlating documents, signs etc into various languages because older sections refuse to learn English. I can safely say 100% of the Indian ladies I have had in my shop have made no attempt to communicate in English, and I find this very frustrating. Last year Christmas was renamed 'Winter Festival' in several towns in an attempt to avoid offending anyone!! Nativity plays were banned in several schools! Now I'm a pagan, and I wasn't offended, but apparently it was to avoid offending Muslims in particular. All this in a Christian country.

I am not intending to upset anyone, but I do feel that if you move to a separate country, you should at least attempt to become part of that culture, not get upset because your own is not prevalent. I'm not talking about abandoning your roots, but you have to respect that you chose to move to somewhere they do things differently. I think if more people tried to do this, there would be a lot less fuss in the world.

[kirtida8]

As I said earlier.."When in Rome...."

[Kriz1]

I'm afraid to say part of my family never mixed in until my nan...who did in the end marry an English man and was cut off from the family for a long time...its not like they did not love the UK...the men served in the UK army as career soldiers..
My other nan only moved to the UK after spending many years learning English...only to slip into a coma after the birth of her last child...to come out speaking Spanglish...with a mix of her native tongue which is from central America...we believe Paraguay...she was so young when she left her home she had no idea where it was...just that it took 10 years to get to Brazil...

[Munish]

OberonSH, sorry to hear all the "Aunties" (we call old Indian ladies, Aunties out of respect (and for the Indian men (and may be Indian ladies with the moustaches (LOL)) Uncle) out of respect) did not talk to you in English.

I am probably in a minority of one here but I don't like these tags like the UK is a "Christian country" or India is "Hindu country" or Indonesia is an "Islamic country," etc. It impliedly puts one religion above all others. I've probably just offended most of the world, but whatever!

As for renaming holidays, that's always confused me. We celebrate "Christmas" not "winter"! Maybe we should rename "Diwali" and "Haloween" as "October fest" and Easter as the "Spring break." MADNESS!

[kirtida8]

I agree that the renaming of holidays is just PC gone too far! Why not just celebrate all holidays instead? I for one would welcome more Bank holidays and reasons to party :drunk: :beer: :D

[chris]

Munish,
The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland is indeed a Christian country enshrined in the fact that as a sovereign nation under Queen Elizabeth 11 she is head of our nations Church and religion, which is built upon Christian beliefs. So yes, the UK is a christian country and non-Christians should respect that fact. That is more about respect for the country they in in, than disrespect by the country of the people. It is like the situation back in the days of Gulf War 1 when the allied troops were discouraged from celebrating Christmas in Saudi Arabia because they were in a country founded on Muslim beliefs. We did that out of respect for that country. Someone did say .. 'when in Rome.'
Going back to the article about British Muslims, I would ask the question.. is the fear by the US about Britons or Muslims?
It is a well known fact that the numbers of Puerto Ricans embracing the Muslim religion and leaving the Catholic faith is growing at a frenetic pace. Does that mean the US will now enforce stricter travel on PR Muslims? I would have no idea what they would do if the 12,000,000 illegals in the US suddenly decided to embrace the muslim religion. I would say 'God knows what they'd do then', but that would mean the assumption there is only one God!

[Munish]

The United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland is indeed a Christian country enshrined in the fact that as a sovereign nation under Queen Elizabeth 11 she is head of our nations Church and religion, which is built upon Christian beliefs. So yes, the UK is a christian country and non-Christians should respect that fact. That is more about respect for the country they in in, than disrespect by the country of the people

Very true and I do respect that. Being a UK citizen and that fact I see my loyalty first and foremost with the UK I respect the rule of law and its constitution, which is why I abide by it. Do I agree that it is right in principle? The answer to that is an absolute no (and like I said I realise I may be in a minority of one)!

But that does not change the status quo I accept the UK is a "Christian country." I strongly believe in secularity at Government and public level and that in today's society religion is a matter for the individual and not the state.

It is like the situation back in the days of Gulf War 1 when the allied troops were discouraged from celebrating Christmas in Saudi Arabia because they were in a country founded on Muslim beliefs. We did that out of respect for that country. Someone did say .. 'when in Rome.'

I agree with the when in Rome to some extent. When in Rome respect the local culture. Absolutely! But do not sacrifice your own beliefs or traditions where it does not impinge on others. I wasn't aware of this discouragement during the Gulf War and I think it's terrible and wrong to have discouraged any one from practising their own religion. This does not convince me I'm afraid.

Going back to the article about British Muslims, I would ask the question.. is the fear by the US about Britons or Muslims?

Based on the experience of our own members, I would say both. As much we have a "special relationship" there is a bit of a hypocricy as the Americans are proud to have achieved independence from British rule and there is an underlying anomosity there. This is partly due to simple way this history is taught (the Americans are the good guys and the British were the bad guys). You can also see it on how British actors are typecast in US TV (Posh snobs or somehow has an evil streak).

It is a well known fact that the numbers of Puerto Ricans embracing the Muslim religion and leaving the Catholic faith is growing at a frenetic pace. Does that mean the US will now enforce stricter travel on PR Muslims? I would have no idea what they would do if the 12,000,000 illegals in the US suddenly decided to embrace the muslim religion. I would say 'God knows what they'd do then', but that would mean the assumption there is only one God!

Interesting food for thought.

Here's another one. When India, with an 80% population of Hindus was subject to the British Raj, was India a "Christian country"? :D

[Kriz1]

Are there many Christian's in India...sorry to say I don't know that one...

Ok 24 million plus as of 2001....and they were there way before the British...interesting reading....lucky I speed read.......
:) :)

[v2002]

Are there many Christian's in India...sorry to say I don't know that one...
Yes Kirzi there are many Christians in India but they never have conflict with hindus....except when M create tensions they are symphtetic to them NOT to H.
_______

Munish.... Yes by Constitution India is a HINDU country, but honestly in todays date its the Hindus that are in minority...because the Stupid Govt. looks only at one thing .. Political games.
Any country that plays a Race card to get votes or political gains is XYZWQK*
The laws of the countries you live in should be upheld no matter what religion you follow ...In my opinion if you cannot adapt to the country you live in ? Get out!!!!!! go back to your homeland and do what ever you want.
If I expect my childrent to practice what my grand parents did than I should never step out of my grandparents land.Values are good but if you like to live in a country other than your homeland and raise family than do not expect to move your mini country inside the new home..adapt to it respect it if you need to practice::::: practice your faith in 4 walls of your house but for god sake don't paralyze your kids with love of your home land because their home land is where you live now .. where you raise them Not where YOU were born.
___________
On a different thought -
Why do I see everyone getting so involved with non immigration related threads?:o ......Sometimes its sad to see the important threads die a natural death in midst of all this crazy discussions ... for example munish your feedback on E2....... dont see anyone taking so much time to post on that thread.

[Munish]

On a different thought -
Why do I see everyone getting so involved with non immigration related threads?:o ......Sometimes its sad to see the important threads die a natural death in midst of all this crazy discussions ... for example munish your feedback on E2....... dont see anyone taking so much time to post on that thread.

Myself, Chris and Susie have requested the kids to provide the feedback on the other thread. Only Byjove's kids have done it. Chris also suggested that the Kids perspective thread remain on the "today's thread" but I am assuming that cannot be done, otherwise it would have been.

As for the other one, I have requested some details on the difference between the rights of L1 and E2 kids, but I am going to have to assume no one knows and work on that myself. I don't think, apart from that much be can be added until I complete the second draft.

The statement that everyone gets involved in the "crazy discussions," and others die a natural death is somewhat unfair, when there are other numerous threads running on E2 related matters, on issues discussing the media involement of expats, ideas for funding (such as the recipe thing). Whether members want to or not want to get involved in a particular thread that is their prerogative - immigration related or otherwise.

[v2002]

The statement that everyone gets involved in the "crazy discussions," and others die a natural death is somewhat unfair,

Munish Ji.........:D It was not a Statement ... it was a thought/ a question !:p I would love to see people get involved in every discussion...light...serious ..I too do that . By now you may have noted- I interact with sweet little kids ( our newest and brightest members),and ofcourse sometimes fool around with you and Dee too..... with that said,what I meant was clearly an observation as I waited to see some very energetic points coming up for discussion on E visa -as I understand most of the members here are on E visa(except me and you ) but when it comes to posting their view....................:( Dont know what to say .

[Munish]

Fair enough. Just not reading things clearly at the moment. I've spend the last 15 hours writing about the disclosure rules related to transactions in shares.....

If you're thinking yawn, ...... exactly!

As for people posting their views, I think members just prefer focusing on what appeals to them. However, if I see Bobby make a posting on recipe ideas or his favorite movie, I'll eat my hat!

[v2002]

I think members just prefer focusing on what appeals to them. However, if I see Bobby make a posting on recipe ideas or his favorite movie, I'll eat my hat!

:D Interesting munish to know " you do wear a hat " good information for DEE.:p I am sure she will be thrilled to know this .. as to bobby !! what can I say he can throw me in a fit of rage and anger in one moment and than make my bones crack with laugh the other .. But now that I do know he is a loving affectionate gentleman I will give him a free pass to post few tips on recipe .....but I am afraid the recipe would be " to mix chem. for the pool" or may be tips on " how to traet your wife like a queen with out spending a dime":o

PS. Bobby please dont pick on me .. but you are free to pick on my buddy Munish :D

[chris]

Munish,
I'm saddened by the news that only byjoves kids have posted so far. My own kids are being asked to something, but my eldest has been up to his eyes this week in school work, but they will post.
As far as the thread moving off the todays posts, isn't it the case thjat a 'sticky note' means it's there forever. I beleive Dustins BarBQ thing had a sticky note, and stayed on there and no offence Dustin on this but I put kids againg out aheda of Dustins BarBq anyday.

[Munish]

Thanks Chris. Let me see if I can work out how to do this sticky note thing. Punky if I have not managed to do by the next hour can you (or the any of the mods) do this please?

[anniefromessex]

Hi, as one of the frivolous ones on here I just would like to add to one of my previous postings on this subject. I am not a clever person, I just tell it like I see it without going round the houses and getting to the same place I am in already.

I don't really care about what race, colour, creed you are, we are all human beings and as I think Kay said, we all bleed red blood. If you are in somebody else's country (as we all are living in America) then you live by the laws of the land over here. I am sick and tired of all this p.c. crap whereby you daren't offend the races who think when they live in a certain country, don't care whether it is here, England or Timbuctoo, that you should cowtow to their wishes. If you don't like it, then go home - if it is sooo brilliant what are you doing here in the first place. I think the Prime Minister of Australia said it how it is, and should be, "you live in our country, there is nothing to stop you worshipping who you worship, but please don't think we have to worship the same God or whatever, you are here, you abide by our rules and don't inflict your faith on us. We have no problem with your faith, that is yours to do with what you like, but we have enough problems with our own God without inflicting yours on us as well" - he didn't say that exactly word for word but that is in essence what he meant and I totally agree with him - if Australia wasn't so far away then I would go there, my Uncle has lived there for 40 odd years and wouldn't even dream of returning to England - he loves the life so much. Okay, others on here have said Australia is just as bad, but I am only giving my opinion on what other people have told me, my eldest son has spent a lot of time over there and thinks life would be better over there for him and his family - he wanted to come here but wasn't prepared to jump through the hoops. Yes, in Sydney they have problems with the Lebanese, what is wrong with these type of people that they can go into a country and cause so much disruption?!!!! It is always down to these fanatics who seem to spend most of their days on the streets, how do they keep themselves, where do they work that they have so much free time?!!!!

America is paranoid about their security; even with them bringing in this thing about having to attend an interview to get a Visa, do these terrorists have it stamped on their foreheads?!!!! It makes me soo mad I want to spit because even if they go to an interview, if they have no prior record does that mean (even if they have gone to Pakistan for a visit) that they have attended an Al Quaeda Camp. Of course it doesn't but the few are ruining it for the good and I for one am pretty p....ed off that my life has been turned upside down because of America's total paranoia about the safety of their nation. Heck, I read the other week that they are letting in 7,000 Iraqis, how do they know that every single one of them is squeaky clean. Their mindset is totally screwed, they are scared of their own shadow, and there was me thinking we were coming to live and work in a country more sensbile than England - it just shows how wrong one can be!!!!

I cannot dress this post up, this country has screwed me and mine because of their paranoia and I heard today that somebody we know who has lived and worked out here for the last 5 years or more and their drivers licenses were up for renewal were turned down. They argued the toss and were treated like second class citizens, were told to get out of line because they were holding up the queue and were told to apply to Tallahassee which they did. They have been given temporary Licenses until it is sorted out, they have 3 years left to run on their Visas and are seriously considering their options - my God how many more hoops are they going to make us jump through, and just how many more taxpaying, good, honest, upstanding people are they going to lose. I have talked to sooo many people who have never worked so hard in their lives before, as has happened to myself and Ted, they get every penny they can from you, expect you to pay over the odds re unemployment benefits and suchlike when most will never be eligible for any help which is what these taxes are for, and still you are expected to pay it, smile nicely and ask if they want anymore blood from you. Our answer to that is no, you are not taking anymore blood from me, what I have left is going back to England so that our grandchilden at least reap the benefit of what is left - you have nothing to offer anymore and we are done jumping through your hoops, being treated as second class citizens and having to deal with POE every time we come in, the green eyed monsters as we now call them!!!

As I said from the start, I am fed up of being politically correct, why should I be, my life has now been turned upside down, I am saying it how it is. Those of you who still have your dreams, good luck to you - that is how it should be and I am sure many of you will make it and think what an idiot I am, but I am sure a lot of you will have to deal with the same old bulls.... that we have dealt with and think enough is enough and decide to go elsewhere. We all have our cross to bear and Ted and I have finally come to a decision that is right for us - not for everybody but at least we will be able to sleep well at night (and at our age unless we get our sleep we look like sh.. in the morning. (See I still have my frivolous side) ha ha.

Love Anniexxxx

Sorry guys, told you I am going to say it how it is from now on. If you don't like the truth then don't read my posts - yes there is so much this country has to offer but they are not offering it to us!!!!

[v2002]

WHAT A SHAME

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/mother-weeps-as-family-split-by-religion/2007/05/04/1177788399253.htm.


Ian Mackinnon, Kuala Lumpur
May 5, 2007

Mother weeps as family split by religion

A MUSLIM woman forcibly separated from her Hindu husband by Malaysia's Islamic authorities after 21 years of happy marriage wept inconsolably after a judge endorsed her decision to handcustody of six of her seven children to her former spouse.

In an unprecedented move for Malaysia — where Islamic laws are strictly enforced — the children, aged four to 14, will be raised as Hindus despite being born to a Muslim mother.

Last month Selangor state's Islamic authorities took Raimah Bibi Noordin, 39, and her children away for rehabilitation and religious counselling after belatedly declaring that her marriage was illegal.

The couple cannot live together because the husband did not convert to Islam as required by law for their marriage to be legal.

In a country where 60 per cent of the population is Muslim, the law also stipulates that the children must be brought up to observe Islam. Anyone born into a Muslim family cannot legally convert.

But Mrs Raimah Bibi's husband, Marimuthu Periasamy, 43, applied for custody of the ethnic Indian couple's children after they and his wife were removed to a Malay Muslim village.

In Thursday's emotional High Court hearing west of the capital, Kuala Lumpur, Mrs Raimah Bibi, who wore traditional floor-length Malay garb with a Muslim headscarf, agreed to give up her children voluntarily to end the stand-off.

"I agree to hand over the custody of my children to my husband to be raised as Hindus," she said, before bursting into tears.

The couple were married according to Hindu traditions and brought up their children in the Hindu faith.

Mr Marimuthu claimed his wife had been adopted by an ethnic Indian Muslim family but that she was a practising Hindu and her old identity card categorised her as an Indian Hindu.

But when she applied for a new identity card this year, the Government listed her as a Muslim, he said. However, an affidavit read to the court on behalf of Mrs Raimah Bibi contradicted her husband's testimony.

"I have had discussions with my husband … with regard to the predicament facing us," it said. "And I state that I was born a Muslim and wish to continue professing the Islamic faith."

A Malaysian Government legal adviser, Zauyah Be Loth Khan, said that Selangor's Islamic affairs department had raised no objections to the children being raised as Hindus, adding that Mrs Raimah Bibi would have the right to visit at any time.

Despite the eventual outcome, the case highlights growing disquiet about the legal rights of non-Muslims in Malaysia, even though religious freedom is enshrined under the constitution.

Lim Kit Siang, an opposition leader, said: "For this to happen to a couple that has lived together for 21 years as a result of a religious conflict is not good for our international image."

[Munish]

Hi, as one of the frivolous ones on here I just would like to add to one of my previous postings on this subject. I am not a clever person, I just tell it like I see it without going round the houses and getting to the same place I am in already...

You're far more intelligent that either you think you are or pretent to be Annie. When you get back you should run for Prime Minister. You make more sense than any poilitician I've heard since Maggie.

Sorry guys, told you I am going to say it how it is from now on. If you don't like the truth then don't read my posts - yes there is so much this country has to offer but they are not offering it to us!!!!

Never apologise for your view, particularly when they are so clear, effective and as concise as you put it.

[Munish]

This does not surprise me at all about Indonesia! Their laws are made as an indirect to weaken Hindus in Indonesia and have forced many to go back. Although this is extreme, it is exactly why I believe in the principle of secularity of Government to ensure freedom of religion.

[Kitty]

I think the question one should ask is this

English or Pakistani? How would this group of Brits feel if their 'Homeland' was bombed by Britain- what would the answer be- are you British or Pakistani.

What I mean is that if you are born in Britain then you should be loyal to the UK, whilst respecting your ancestry, should you not?

Its like me being a Canadian but born in Scotland, I would answer that I am Canadian not Scottish, as I have assumed my new country and the identity therein.



Yes agree with your comments, just cos you happen to be born in Britian does not automatically make you British in your heart

[anniefromessex]

Thanks Mun, I think they would hike me out like they did Maggie. My God that woman, just wish we had someone like her now, she would soon sort it all out, although I think the lily livered ones who have now come up through the ranks and are all politically correct, wouldn't back her anyway!!!

I hate the thought of my homeland going down the tubes as it is, and before anybody jumps on me, it really really is. The attitudes of people are frightening to be honest with you, they look as though they want to kill you, be it on the roads or just walking along the street minding your own business. Why is that?!! I know there are many crazies here but most people have a smile for you and a good word - perhaps it's the weather!!! I think I probably notice it more because I have been here a while and when I return it is very noticeable; those of you who still live there and are not trying to get out of there for the same reasons we all did, probably do not notice it as much as it does become a way of life and you accept it. But just think, why do most holiday destinations in Europe hate the Brits - food for thought?!!!!

By the way Mun, photos will be available soon!!!

Love Anniexxx

[floridapete]

Anniefromessex,

Couldn't it possibly be where you came from (and where you return to) that gives you that insight and slanted opinion of 'the old country' ?

Perhaps if you got out more and saw the rest of Britain, away from the overcrowded London and South East area, you might have a more favourable opinion and realise that not all of Britain suffers from the pressures of 'darn Sarf'.

Even 'up North', away from the major connurbations, there is a still wonderful quality of life to be enjoyed.

You don't have to move 4,000 miles to find it !

So, please, don't tar us all with the same brush !

Peterxxxxx :)

[peter gold]

Just thinking how Europe has changed in the past 20 years and how it will continue to change with open borders. That is why we left, and will never return.
Everyone has ther own opinion of the UK . Mine is clouded by the 25 years of practising law and seeing the mindless crimes going unpunished. Three years for robbery or a serious assault!!! You are joking. I found drugs and the yobbish behaviour worse in the smaller northern towns where I practised.
Get me off my hobby horse.

[DEE F]

Just thinking how Europe has changed in the past 20 years and how it will continue to change with open borders. That is why we left, and will never return.
Everyone has ther own opinion of the UK . Mine is clouded by the 25 years of practising law and seeing the mindless crimes going unpunished. Three years for robbery or a serious assault!!! You are joking. I found drugs and the yobbish behaviour worse in the smaller northern towns where I practised.
Get me off my hobby horse.Hi Peter,although I would never class myself as an "England Basher"I think I personally will always look on it as my home no matter where I live,I have to agree with you on the geographical sites of it and the problems they have there,where I am from in Oldham (as you know) and where my son -in -law works on the tag team for the greater Manchester Police,the violence has increased threefold, in some parts of the town you darent venture there after dark and that is a fact,also where in some parts of the town also the first language is Urdu!!!! I am talking Westwood if you are familiar with it,and the so called punishment dolled out to these thugs is so minimal it is laughable,I think if you are fortunate enough to live in the Lake District or the Dales or somewhere just as picturesque then you are less likely to come across the crime and deprivation,however a lot of people arent ,the whole worls had gone mad not just England either,but I also agree with Florida Pete you cant and shouldnt tar everyone with the same brush ,they are not all criminals ,but what is happening in England it seems to me is once again an overload of immigrants taking over the NHS and other vital services and therefore leaving the old an dinfirm and the poor totaly vulnerable,once again whose fault is it??????????? I also fully understand where Annie is coming ,her and her Husband have to give up the life they have made here in Florida because of the screwed up immigration system,their children are not allowed to be here with them so therfore they have to be with thier children and grandchildren,Now Annie has seen far more than I have at what is happening in the UK and her opinion is that it is going down the pan on a daily basis,me I dont know for sure I have to go off what I hear from others,but it is sad for all concerned ,if the Great could be put back into Britain,maybe people wouldnt be clamouring to leave its shores on a daily basis,I know if my husband said to me lets go back,My cases would be packed so fast you wouldnt see me for dust,both sides of the pond have many many problems ,but I say the grass is never greener,only a different shade.

Love Dee xx

[Kriz1]

Anniefromessex,

Couldn't it possibly be where you came from (and where you return to) that gives you that insight and slanted opinion of 'the old country' ?

Perhaps if you got out more and saw the rest of Britain, away from the overcrowded London and South East area, you might have a more favourable opinion and realise that not all of Britain suffers from the pressures of 'darn Sarf'.

Even 'up North', away from the major connurbations, there is a still wonderful quality of life to be enjoyed.

You don't have to move 4,000 miles to find it !

So, please, don't tar us all with the same brush !

Peterxxxxx :)

You would never get my mum to move to the USA....my in laws moan about the odd thing in the Uk....but are still happy for the most part ...their biggest moan is the rubbish police....but it can be the same here when it comes to sorting rubbish and getting fines.......its all down to where you live....

[kirtida8]

My parents would never move here either as they think that everything is too far away, too expensive (food and medical) and little social interaction - but then again they are Indian and need their social gatherings to catch up on all the latest gossip. I do agree about the food though - the selection of vegetables alone is atrocious and expensive. Where is Tesco's when you need it LOL. As for me, I love the isolation from nosey relatives so dread having to go back. :D

[Kriz1]

My dad moans everytime he buys an apple here...
I like being away from my family...we get on a lot better that way....

I was at a friends house last night...she is a Brit...and we were talking about how little social life Americans have....they work way too hard...but have too to make ends meet...it was nice to go out last night for a BBQ...hubby got to play pool with my friends hubby and his mates who are all American...we had a great night...going to have to do that more often...

[lorraine]

My cousin lives in Stow-on-the -wold and she loves it to bits... her son is the same age as ours and she would never move here. She loves the culture where she lives, the history , the climate (ie seasons) . Zac (her son) goes out in the small village that they live in with his friends and she says she doesnt worry about him it is a very safe area to live.

Her mum ,my Aunite, hates it here she said you couldnt get her to move here for all the money in china... she dislikes nearly everything to do with America and really hates orlando. She would love to live in a small village in Italy , but enjoys living in the Uk and visiting other countries with history.

Each to their own, you couldnt pay me to move back:(

I must admit ,I do miss the food, (family obviously), apart from that nope Nout else!!!!

Mt Dora here I come :)

[Kriz1]

I've never really missed England...but then I live in a very English area...I kick and scream about going home when times are hard...but then I did the same about moving back into my little council flat after moving into our own house with all the problems that brings...

I can't say I know anyone in the UK ..outside of the forums..that would want to move here...or anywhere outside the UK for that matter...

I have this link ........

http://www.tuscanhills.co.uk/cgi-bin/propertysearch_ddd.pl?type_all=e&search=price_all&search=condition&search=beds&order_by=Price_sort&order=123

I'd like to live in Italy too....

[lorraine]

OH no ,not Italy no thankyou, doesn't interest me in the slightest...

I love Amsterdam but dont like the weather... The people and culture are fantastic, I have friends there and we have travelled to many different places and I really felt at home there.

Weather is very important to me, I really dislike the cold, wind, rain, snow. Nice to look at occasionally but that is it!!!

[Kriz1]

Now I can't get used to the rain in FL...its one of the things putting me off the move...also the cold...I know its not cold long...but I really feel it in FL...we get little rain here from April till Nov...FL is a shock to me summer time...