Would you/Could you volunteer under visa waiver?

[kirtida8]

If you were given the opportunity to get an E-1 managerial visa, would you volunteer your services for free until you received the visa by coming on a visa waiver? Would you be allowed under the visa waiver program to even contemplate this scenario? Would it be possible to do this under a B-1/B-2 visa? Would you volunteer for upto 9 months, going back and forth to your home country, if this is how long it took to secure your visa?
Another scenario is where you have a B1/B2 and set up a Florida company - don't get a visa to allow you to run the company yourself, but still get paid for work that your employees do on behalf of the company. Would this be legally allowed under B1/B2 visa regulations?

[chris]

Ooooooh, you do like asking multiple questions don't you K!

On the volunteering bit, I suppose the big question is what is the US Government definition of 'work'. My understanding of VWP and B1/B2 is that you are a visitor and NOT allowed to work. Work can be something you may or may not get paid for. Knowing the US and their anal fixation with liability, I would have thought that any type of voluntary work offered by organizations would have to be covered by insurance and that insurance would possibly define what the activity is too.
On the running of a US company on B1/B2, again my understanding is that as a non US citizen you can invest in or own a business in the US, but must have the appropriate visa in order to 'work' in it. If you are the foreign owner, have US workers in that company and you derive owner benefit as the owner of said company, BUT it is others, not you doing the actual work, then that is permissible. So if you were Mr X living in the UK and owned a biz in Florida with say a US Manager running it for you with some US workers, that is perfectly legal. I would also have thought that you could enter the US on a B1/B2 visa to visit and discuss the business with the US Manager. I guess it is about owning/directing/managing & working and the degrees that Mr X would be involved in those areas?
Does that all make sense?

[Steve in clermont]

sooooooooooo

All those in the uk who own homes here that are designated vacation homes are perfectly legal to operate that vacation home and take any profit it makes.

UNTIL.....

Homeowners who come here and paint their homes, clean their homes, or do any kind of maintenance work on their homes. I know everyone is going to say " they have every right to work on their own property" but they dont.
Technically your vacation home is a business asset and as such any work done on the home is classed as working in the business.
If you told POE that you had come to paint your vacation home on a VWP you have a good chance of being denied entry.

[kirtida8]

Yes Chris I do like to ask multiple questions lol - but this is done in all seriousness so as to educate ourselves and avoid the pitfalls of US immigration laws. The question about the company owner should have contained the following information - the owner is "operating" the business in as much as he is the one getting the work and then getting his "employees" to do said work. I put employees in quotes because he counts himself as one of the employees even though he supposedly doesn't get paid - his business does! Maybe that helps clarify things - so in that case, what would the implications be?
Also - would you volunteer to "work" fulltime for upto 9 months, incurring all the costs of travel within and out of the US - just to get a job? How would you explain your reasons for the trips in and out of the country - especially if you were only out for a week or two before coming back for 3months? Or would you expect to get paid "cash in hand" or via your US company until you got your visa? I know that times are tough at the moment, and people do work for free to try and get an employer to see them as an asset worth keeping - but ordinarily that would be a matter of weeks - not months.
Maybe the question should be - would a company be justified in asking you to work for free to cover the costs of your visa? But the situation would still be that you did not have a valid visa - would that be ok?

[chris]

Yes Chris I do like to ask multiple questions lol - but this is done in all seriousness so as to educate ourselves and avoid the pitfalls of US immigration laws. The question about the company owner should have contained the following information - the owner is "operating" the business in as much as he is the one getting the work and then getting his "employees" to do said work. I put employees in quotes because he counts himself as one of the employees even though he supposedly doesn't get paid - his business does! Maybe that helps clarify things - so in that case, what would the implications be?
Also - would you volunteer to "work" fulltime for upto 9 months, incurring all the costs of travel within and out of the US - just to get a job? How would you explain your reasons for the trips in and out of the country - especially if you were only out for a week or two before coming back for 3months? Or would you expect to get paid "cash in hand" or via your US company until you got your visa? I know that times are tough at the moment, and people do work for free to try and get an employer to see them as an asset worth keeping - but ordinarily that would be a matter of weeks - not months.
Maybe the question should be - would a company be justified in asking you to work for free to cover the costs of your visa? But the situation would still be that you did not have a valid visa - would that be ok?

If the business owner is 'operating' in the US and as you say he/she is the one sourcing the orders, then they are performing a sales function and that is work for which they would require the appropriate visa.
My knowledge of B1/B2 is very limited and others may know more, but it is a visitors visa to come for a specific purpose, but cannot include doing work.
On the 2nd question are you saying 'would a US company be justified in asking you to break immigration laws by asking you to undertake work to cover the cost of the visa. Employment can be remunerated in many ways, including wages and peripheral benefits. If a company said undertake this work and we will cover your visa cost, then you are receiving remuneration. It is not a wage, but it is still remuneration. If you 'worked' in a clothes store for no wage, but you were given clothes at no cost, that is remuneration.
Steve is 100% correct on painting you home that you run as a business. You would be an idiot to say to POE
I have come to paint my vacation home'. Your response would be that 'you are vacationing in your vacation home' End of story.

[Ray10]

If you were given the opportunity to get an E-1 managerial visa, would you volunteer your services for free until you received the visa by coming on a visa waiver? Would you be allowed under the visa waiver program to even contemplate this scenario? Would it be possible to do this under a B-1/B-2 visa? Would you volunteer for upto 9 months, going back and forth to your home country, if this is how long it took to secure your visa?
Another scenario is where you have a B1/B2 and set up a Florida company - don't get a visa to allow you to run the company yourself, but still get paid for work that your employees do on behalf of the company. Would this be legally allowed under B1/B2 visa regulations?

You cannot do any volunteer job ... that other may be paid for ..so your scenario is out delivering food to the soup kitchen is never paid...you could do that

you could invest in a US business and derive an income while overseas
most peope with rental house do that ..and you would pay taxes

[kirtida8]

You cannot do any volunteer job ... that other may be paid for ..so your scenario is out delivering food to the soup kitchen is never paid...you could do that

you could invest in a US business and derive an income while overseas
most peope with rental house do that ..and you would pay taxes

OK time for a little more details - the volunteer job involves running a housekeeping department ie overseeing cleaners and leads to an E-1 managerial visa for the company that manages the homes. The US business is a maintenance business again working for the vacation industry. Husband runs maintenance and wife does the housekeeping. Now how would the scenarios work within the visa waiver or B1/B2 framework?

[dip your toe]

most peope with rental house do that ..and you would pay taxes

Am I correct in saying that property taxes for the rental property would be payable to the county where the property is situated but any taxes due from rental profits would be payable in the country where the landlord has permanent resdience?...... and, would an absentee business owner also pay taxes from any income received from the business in his domiciled residence provided he/she was not resident in the U.S. for more than 180 days in any tax year?

[Ray10]

Am I correct in saying that property taxes for the rental property would be payable to the county where the property is situated but any taxes due from rental profits would be payable in the country where the landlord has permanent resdience?...... and, would an absentee business owner also pay taxes from any income received from the business in his domiciled residence provided he/she was not resident in the U.S. for more than 180 days in any tax year?

No ..you use the ITIN to pay the US taxes

unlike the US the UK does not as far as I know require you to pay tax on overseas earning

[Ray10]

OK time for a little more details - the volunteer job involves running a housekeeping department ie overseeing cleaners and leads to an E-1 managerial visa for the company that manages the homes. The US business is a maintenance business again working for the vacation industry. Husband runs maintenance and wife does the housekeeping. Now how would the scenarios work within the visa waiver or B1/B2 framework?

Neither can be done on a B-2/B-1

this is what you can do on the b1
http://travel.state.gov/pdf/BusinessVisa.pdf

[kirtida8]

Thanks Ray - I figured as much, but wanted to be sure.

[Steve in clermont]

OK time for a little more details - the volunteer job involves running a housekeeping department ie overseeing cleaners and leads to an E-1 managerial visa for the company that manages the homes. The US business is a maintenance business again working for the vacation industry. Husband runs maintenance and wife does the housekeeping. Now how would the scenarios work within the visa waiver or B1/B2 framework?

Dont mention this to POE . you will definatley be denied entry.

Strange enough if you were working who would know , unless you were silly enough to ask about it/ announce it on a public forum...

The only difference between having no visa or having a B visa is the length of time you get on drivers license.

Ive know illeagles to get in bother with police and never had to show they had a right to live and work here... Nobody really gives a damn here , except the poor sod who is here legally and has a right to work, and you took a job they could have had.

Im surprised at you kay, you know the rules better than most on here, if ya gonna do something dodogy dont broadcast it...
(i dont mean you personally kay, as i know you are in the "im alright jack club")

[Steve in clermont]

OK time for a little more details - the volunteer job involves running a housekeeping department ie overseeing cleaners and leads to an E-1 managerial visa for the company that manages the homes. The US business is a maintenance business again working for the vacation industry. Husband runs maintenance and wife does the housekeeping. Now how would the scenarios work within the visa waiver or B1/B2 framework?

One more thing ... Its very unlikley you could get E2 manager out of that position. With just one management company it would not pay enough, and there are millions of bi-lingual ameicans that are just as qualified to fill that kind of post.

[kirtida8]

One more thing ... Its very unlikley you could get E2 manager out of that position. With just one management company it would not pay enough, and there are millions of bi-lingual ameicans that are just as qualified to fill that kind of post.

Yes I agree that most management companies would not be able to do this - but this is not most and in reply to your previous post - the couple in question have not broadcast it on a public forum - but they did under oath in a deposition which I think is worse for them. I do know better than to do something like this - especially when it directly affects someone who is here legally - but somehow dumb and dumber seem to think that they are right!
I basically wanted to confirm my understanding of the regulations and find out what others thought of this - as you rightly said Steve - a lot of homeowners do exactly that when they work on their vacation homes.

[dip your toe]

No ..you use the ITIN to pay the US taxes

My understanding was that only US citizens, green card holders and resident aliens for tax purposes ( i.e. E2 ) were required to file US taxes. Thus a UK citizen who did not live in the US for over 180 days and had rental property income generated from the US would not be subject to US tax on any profits from property rental but would be required to declare those profits in the country of his domicile and be subject to the tax laws of that country.

[JulieC]

My understanding was that only US citizens, green card holders and resident aliens for tax purposes ( i.e. E2 ) were required to file US taxes. Thus a UK citizen who did not live in the US for over 180 days and had rental property income generated from the US would not be subject to US tax on any profits from property rental but would be required to declare those profits in the country of his domicile and be subject to the tax laws of that country.

Incorrect. I owned two vacation homes for ten years whilst I was still living in the UK. Had to get an ITIN and file a tax return every year. Never made enough to pay tax as you could offset your expenses but I had to file a US return. Renting a vacation home out is seen as running a US business. You have to declare your income on your UK self assessment return also, via the foreign income supplement pages.

[dip your toe]

Incorrect. I owned two vacation homes for ten years whilst I was still living in the UK. Had to get an ITIN and file a tax return every year. Never made enough to pay tax as you could offset your expenses but I had to file a US return. Renting a vacation home out is seen as running a US business. You have to declare your income on your UK self assessment return also, via the foreign income supplement pages.

Thanks. I wasn't thinking of vacation home rental, but I assume residential property would be the same.

Another scenario: What if a UK citizen was paid a consultancy fee by an American company? would the same apply, or would he/she just have to file self assessment in the UK. via the foreign income supplement pages?

[anniefromessex]

How ridiculous that you cannot even work on your own property. Okay I know you are not going to tell the guy at POE why you are over, it is after all part of your vacation, I should know we did it for long enough but funnily enough a case in point. My son's uncle-in-law had termites, he obviously had it sorted - doesn't rent his property out uses just when he fancies a break himself - but wanted my son to renew baseboards and generally sort everything out for him. Now you all know that Daniel was denied entry 5 years or more ago so would have to go to the Embassy to get some sort of Visa if he wanted to enter - still don't know to this day about any ban - ie how long etc but he thought it would be okay to say he was helping his uncle out!! Just goes to show how he forgets what idiots they are and you cannot help people/family out - cannot even help yourself out haha!!! One of these days he might fall in that even though he still owns a place over there, pays his taxes etc etc he cannot even do work on it himself - they want yer money but you can go hang - sorry for the rant -makes my blood boil!!

Love Anniexxx

[mr&mrssunshine]

on theVWP you absolutely cannot volunteer or work for free if the job is deemed to be one which should attract any form of compensation. seem to recall someones parents who were coming on a B2 to 'babysit' whiledaughter worked also falling foul of this rule (babysitters normally getting paid of course)

[Bayfield]

They certainly do where I am.

Really a no brainer, do not work in the US unless you are work authorised.