E2 Renewal Denied - unbelievable

[Paul King]

The E2 renewal for my business that has been operating for 5 years, is a registered investment advisor in the US, and has clients all over the world has just been denied under clause (4) "Enterprise is a real and operating commercial enterprise". The guy believed all the supporting evidence was basically fabricated. Immigration attorney (who has never had an E2 denied) is not happy to put it mildly. This decision is clearly BS and I'm fighting it.

More details when I have a resolution.

[JulieC]

So sorry to hear that Paul. As one who has had a visa renewal denied, it sucks and throws you into complete disarray about what to do next.
A few questions. I assume this was London. You could still presumably file for extention of 1-94 with USCIS and landlock yourself, so many people are nowadays. Can I ask how many employees you have, they are very keen on employees nowadays, much more so than they were five years ago and they are also more important on renewal than on initial issue.

[Paul King]

Yes this was London. We already did the I-94 extension in the US (which irrtated the consular officer right from the start anyway for some reason).

We have an employee on a commission-based basis whi has not generated enough sales for a W-2 yet. Marginality does not specifically require employees, only enough business income to more than pay for personal expenses, but the app. was rejected on that too following from not accepting any evidence as legitimate (i.e. employment contract, sales agreement, etc. etc.).

I know burden of proof is on the applicant, but if the consular officer believes evidence is fabricated then it doesn't really matter what the state of your company really is.

"These incoming wire transfers you say are payments for a contract you have could just be a friend sending you money". Guilty until proved innocent.

[peter gold]

The E2 renewal for my business that has been operating for 5 years, is a registered investment advisor in the US, and has clients all over the world has just been denied under clause (4) "Enterprise is a real and operating commercial enterprise". The guy believed all the supporting evidence was basically fabricated. Immigration attorney (who has never had an E2 denied) is not happy to put it mildly. This decision is clearly BS and I'm fighting it.

More details when I have a resolution.
Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

[kirtida8]

So sorry to hear of your denial Paul - but wish you all the luck in fighting to get it reversed. Well if they were averse to your case because you filed for the extension - then I'm definitely out of the running as I have done so twice now. More to discuss with reporters and editors at the luncheon I have been invited to next month by the Orlando Sentinel. This is not over by a long chalk as far as I am concerned and I will not go down without a fight.!!:fit:

[tracifrost]

Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

well peter, you certainly know, your visas!!!, what a help and asset to have you on board. i know where im going for advice next time lol.

[peter gold]

Tracy
Thanks for the compliment.
Remember I cannot give advice as I am not licensed to practice US law here but I can put you in the right direction of the right attorney to use.!

[InnVic]

Paul
Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
.


.....please tell me you know that for a fact :-)

[InnVic]

Paul - I'm sorry to hear of your problems. Are you landlocked in London? If not how did you get back to the US? (VW? temporary visa? )

[peter gold]

I incuded that comment as an example as I knew it affected you.
As you know this is an argument you only put up, if you cannot establish that the business does not support you.see 9 FAM 41.51.N11

[byjove]

OH! Paul, I am so sorry for you. I know when I hear these things it makes me kack me pants! I do hope you find a way back!

[OberonSH]

So what's your next move then?

[britcan]

Good Luck to you.. its shameful the way E2'rs are being treated. You know what there are enough of us to create a "class action lawsuit", perhaps the ACLU should be standing up for us rather than supporting other 'ethnic groups".:fit:

[Susie]

The E2 renewal for my business that has been operating for 5 years, is a registered investment advisor in the US, and has clients all over the world has just been denied under clause (4) "Enterprise is a real and operating commercial enterprise". The guy believed all the supporting evidence was basically fabricated. Immigration attorney (who has never had an E2 denied) is not happy to put it mildly. This decision is clearly BS and I'm fighting it.

More details when I have a resolution.

Oh Paul,

I am so sorry to hear your news, if there is anything I can do just ask


Please keep us updated

[Susie]

Good Luck to you.. its shameful the way E2'rs are being treated. You know what there are enough of us to create a "class action lawsuit", perhaps the ACLU should be standing up for us rather than supporting other 'ethnic groups".:fit:



Hi

I agree and disagree with your comments

E 2 people are being treated in a shameful, but so are others on L Visa or any other type of visa and why we must become a united front to petition for changes, we are getting there slowly but surely

[DebbieM]

Paul - I'm so sorry to hear of your news. This has to be everyone's worst nightmare, what on earth do you do now?

I have been off line for a couple of days - new computer and Windows Vista causing me all sorts of issues. Thanks to Chris and Punky for helping to sort things out. I wasn't sure whether I should post a response I received at the beginning of the week from my VA as a couple of people with E-2 renewals pending I don't want to cause unnecessary concern. However in light of this post I think it is very relevant so here goes.

The following reply was sent after I contacted our VA about renewing our E-2visa. We extended our status last September therfore legal until Sept 2008but I don't like being landlocked and I wanted to be able to control the timing of a UK visit to Jan/Feb so as to impact our business as little as possible. We run a Property Management business, are in good shape, exceeded our business plan, paid out $48,000 to contractors during the 1st half of this year and have 2 employees on W-2. I also questioned my eldest daugher who turns 20 in March next year changing her status to F-1 at the same time.

This is the response:

Dear Debbie:

I am still receiving reports of continuing difficulties in London. I have been doing extensions of status with USCIS for U.K. E-2 applicants. This gives two additional years of status but does not allow travel outside the U.S. as an E-2 does. In light of the horror stories from London, I have been reluctant to send clients to London for E-2 renewal until I am certain there is a new “regime” in place that is fairly adjudicating E-2 visas.

Under normal circumstances, the growth and development of your business would permit the issuance of a full-validity (i.e. five year) E-2 visa. My suggestion would be to take another look at the situation again in London in November.

Regarding XXXX, there are ways college students can work on an F-1 visa, usually through part-time on-campus employment. She should confirm with her college that she would be eligible to work with F-1 status and that a job would be available. If so, we can change her status to F-1.

I have been out-of-town and apologize for the delay in responding to your e-mail.

I can only comment on my dealings with this guy but personally I have to trust him as he got us here in the first place, first time and without any hitches that was in December 2004. He used to work as a Treaty Officer in the US Embassy in Paris and therefore had the heads up on what was required. I actually asked him to begin the process for us but as you can see he has advised us not to go down that path right now, doing himself out of quite a large sum of money, so I can only take from that, that he does have very serious concerns.

Whether his comments are based around the type of business we are in - we all know PM hasn't been flavor of the month for a while now I'm not sure.

I certainly don't want anyone to think I have posted this as scare tactics but I though I should share some professional advice from the VA's mouth.

Good luck to everyone with an application in.

Debs

[byjove]

OK! Now I am seriously kacking me pants!

[kirtida8]

me too

[peter gold]

Debbie
I am sure that the vc you use has your confidence but I have to say the Attronies I work with have not shared his current experience. In fact to the contrary.
In the past few weeks I am aware of four E2 renewals all getting five years.
I am aware of the refusals on here but do not have all the facts to comment
If as it seems you are compliant with the Rules, and how they are currently being applied you sould get a renewal. You have expanded the business, have two employees, a business plan, and have an income suporting your family.
Every account I have recently heard of the guy doing E2's is he is fair, but applies the rules.
Why be landlocked and put off the evil day of interview?
Sorry I would be looking to find a an Immigration Atty who is Board certified in Immigration Law, or get a copy of the Fam rules ( I can e mail an adobe copy to you) and do it for yourrself.
To everyone else Debbie is not scare mongering just reporting her vc's experience. I am reporting mine.

[byjove]

Well! Kay we can kack together then mate!

[DebbieM]

Peter - thanks for your input, I hear you I really do.

I did think about doing this myself but decided to run it by our Visa Attorney, and he is an attorney not a consultant, as I wanted to question the change of status for our daughter. He is also board certified and a member of every organization going - a good guy not one of the dodgy ones!

I must admit I was shocked by his response as all I was hearing until this morning were success stories and as we are the best shape since we have been here I thought the time was right to take the plunge. For me, I can only liken applying for any visa renewal to be a bit like playing poker - and whether you are a strong enough person to stay the course. I truly believe he is erring on the side of caution and saying why put yourself at risk when there is no need right now - we are legal until late 2008.

I would be absolutely beside myself if we were refused because if you get stuck in the UK I feel we would certainly kiss goodbye to everything we have worked so damned hard for over the past 2 1/2 years - so do I gamble and take the chance of winning the big prize of 5 years or do I sit tight??? - now there's the million $ question.

For me, with the uncertainty of someone who has given me nothing but good advice throughout this whole journey I have to sit tight even though I know we meet all the criteria, I am just not prepared to take the risk. But that's just me - for anyone else who has or is thinking about applying, you must do what you feel is right.

Debs

[JulieC]

Just a bit of aside information on what your attorney said on F1, Debbie, at the moment they can ONLY work on campus and a max of 20 hours a week term time, more im holiday time but a lot of on campus employers dont need anyone then. They have to get a job BEFORE they are issued with a social security number and have to take confirmation of employment to the social security office. There are jobs on campus but it does limit the choice, Matt managed to get a job in the university bookstore.

[peter gold]

Honest reply and for the right reasons you seem to have made a good choice.
As he is a board certifed atty and not an unlicensed vc evreything I have said is now academic, but this exchange will help others.
I am interested to know if his office has some stats of reason refusals as it is in not borne out by my experience.
He is the ATTY so I bow to him.

[Susie]

Hi

This whole uncertainty worries me. It is apparent that many E 2 holders are too scared to return to the UK for the interview in case they are given a request for further evidence or denied and cannot say I blame them. The new guy at the embassy does seem very firm, thorough and fair though

Each person has to do what they feel is right according to their situation but no one on E visa ever has peace of mind and always in fear of not performing enough to remain running their biz in the USA

Heard today that the embassy do not look too kindly on applicants who just extend their status and would not be surprised if this loophole closes in the future, I hope not

[Sharon]

Paul,

Am so sorry for your situation I do hope they review and approve you soon. This must be so stressful for your whole family and to be in limbo.

[anniefromessex]

Paul,

I am sooo sorry for you and your family. It's a terrible situation to be in and I wish you all the very best of luck in trying to turn it round. Nobody deserves the stress this puts on you all.

Love Anniexxx

[OberonSH]

Most people seem to focus on their intitial application, then once they're over think it's all good. We're more worried about the renewal than the initial application, especially with all these horror stories.

Do you think they're mass-refusing to clear backlogs, and because of the upcoming change-of-hands governent wise?

[byjove]

I agree obi, I think renewal is harder than the first application, coz you are already here, made a life, and to think it may well all go down the toilet it is horrific.

[InnVic]

Does anyone think that the rules have been changed in the past few years? Or is it that people are expecting a greater degree of flexibility and deviation from their original business plan? What I'm getting at is that if you've done everything that you said you'd do in your original plan (investment/sales target/profit/employees etc..) then can they really deny your renewal? It would seem criminal to give a visa on the basis of one set of criteria and then refuse to renew because they've "moved the goal posts".......a clear case of bait and switch!

[Paul King]

Thanks for all your kind words of support and advice. I'll just say for the moment I'm not the kind of person to let petty small-minded beurocrats stop me doing what I want to do.

PMKing Trading can be operated from anywhere in the world with an internet connection, and it's not the only US-domiciled company I own or have a management interest in. These inconveniences happen and one just has to deal with them.

I'll post any progress as it happens.

[charliesmum]

Paul - I'm very sorry for the hassles you have gone through with your E2 renewal. I assume you have been left stuck in England by what you say in your post and I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that is one of the nightmare scenarios we all dread.

I will be very interested in how you get on with an appeal.

When we went through our renewal, as most people on here already know, we went through the time when people were being asked for extra information to be sent in. We were asked 3 times, over an 18 month period, and each time the problem of "proving you are a real and operating company' came up. The first time we just sent in copies of invoices and then we heard from someone who had been to the Embassy and interviewed by the dreaded MO, that that wasn't enough as they could be made up. There had to be copies of cheques paying the invoice and then copies of the bank statements showing that cheque had been paid in to your bank account and also any invoices from suppliers with any items on that you had rebilled. OK we thought and we got all that information together for a whole month and sent it in with the next request for information. That still wasn't enough and the next request was for items that hadn't ever been mentioned before, like proof that we had paid our taxes and even proof that we had permission to store our Pool Company chemicals in our lock-up.

We really felt that we were being victimised and had no chance of getting our renewal, but after 18 months of being landlocked and knowing there was a more sympathetic guy at the Embassy, we eventually went for our interview in March this year - 18 months after our visa had run out. Yes we had renewed our I94s, as we had no choice except to be out of status and luckily that wasn't an issue with Glenn - the Embassy guy. In fact one of the first things he said to us was that he couldn't understand why we hadn't been asked to come for an interview before and he could see no reason why we had been asked for all the extra info.

Anyway we got our renewal and I have to say, the guy couldn't have been nicer, but every application is looked at differently.

The other thing I would like to say is that we didn't send a Business Plan in any of the original applications - our Plan was easy, clean more pools, employ more staff, make more money!!!!!! We hadn't done forecasts, projections or anything like that. When we went to the Embassy we spent ages putting information together - all the new building in our area, how much revenue each employee made us after expenses, how we could market our business etc etc - even letters from customers, our employees and other places giving us their support, and none of it was asked for. We had quickly realised that you should only give them what they ask you to bring, but we had it as back up if we did need it. So I wouldn't place too much importance on your original Business Plan and how you have performed against it - they want proof of income, proof of employees (and I'm sorry, I know what it says in the FAM Guidelines about not needing employees on W2s, but it does seem to be what they want) and proof that if your E2 becomes invalid, you will leave their country.

I am very pleased, obviously, that our renewal was granted, but it was after a long wait and a lot of heartache.

I hope that anyone thinking about waiting until "the Embassy changes it's attitude, or however it's put" - meaning makes renewals easier, realises that this could be as good as it gets with this Glenn guy and the next person could be back to the ways of the person before him. Renewals are no longer the done deal that they used to be and I really think they have tightened up on a lot of things.

Zoe

[peter gold]

Zoe
Someone like you needed to say this and show everyone your experience.

[Susie]

Does anyone think that the rules have been changed in the past few years? Or is it that people are expecting a greater degree of flexibility and deviation from their original business plan? What I'm getting at is that if you've done everything that you said you'd do in your original plan (investment/sales target/profit/employees etc..) then can they really deny your renewal? It would seem criminal to give a visa on the basis of one set of criteria and then refuse to renew because they've "moved the goal posts".......a clear case of bait and switch!

At our recent committee meeting my attorney said the London embassy goes in fits and starts and circles. Sometimes they only give a two year renewal for a period of time, then the renewals seem to change and people get 5 year renewals, then back to two year ones and so on

[byjove]

Does anyone think that the rules have been changed in the past few years? Or is it that people are expecting a greater degree of flexibility and deviation from their original business plan? What I'm getting at is that if you've done everything that you said you'd do in your original plan (investment/sales target/profit/employees etc..) then can they really deny your renewal? It would seem criminal to give a visa on the basis of one set of criteria and then refuse to renew because they've "moved the goal posts".......a clear case of bait and switch!

I think it is more of the case that with the people being denied has is causing a stir. They are going over thinking they are following everything to the book. And the denials? they seem to be coming out of the blue. I know I wouldnt chance going if I thought I would be denied as with these people. And they do seem to be moving the goal posts, not just weekly but immigration officer to immigration officer.:fit: It seems they deny coz they dont like the look of you that day! or they had an argument with the misses/mr that morning. it seems so hit and miss. TERRIFIYING

[anniefromessex]

Crazy situation!! I am soo mad I could spit - they hold our lives in their hands and don't give a damn about the consequences to you or your family. I know we don't have a God given right to be here, but come on, as I said on another post we aren't exactly raping and pillaging their country!! We give, give, and give again - they have us over a barrel and they know it!!

Love Anniexxx

[byjove]

well, maybe we should! Then we would get some respect.

[InnVic]

I find this hard to believe. I know that people get denied. But from reading between the lines of their stories it appears that many cases are turned down because the applicant has been given bad advice or they have not fulfilled the requirements (and I don't just mean employees). Its not always fair BUT I can't see how the Embassy would deny because they don't like the look of you or the officer is having a bad day. I may be proved wrong in November, but I have to hang on to a positive mind set.

[britcan]

I find this hard to believe. I know that people get denied. But from reading between the lines of their stories it appears that many cases are turned down because the applicant has been given bad advice or they have not fulfilled the requirements (and I don't just mean employees). Its not always fair BUT I can't see how the Embassy would deny because they don't like the look of you or the officer is having a bad day. I may be proved wrong in November, but I have to hang on to a positive mind set.

fingers crossed INNVic

[DBN Florida]

Hello there! I'm a long time listener, first time caller,

I had to post something, as I'm rather surprised on the attitude of so many people on this forum, may of them being Treaty Investor (E) visa holders. Many seem to have the belief that they are entitled to have a visa granted to them, and that, just by virtue of being British, they should automatically be granted legal permanent residency in the U.S. upon expiry of their E-visa.

The CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) clearly states that the Treaty Investor visa is not permanent, and I quote - "Intends to depart from the United States upon the termination of E'2 status".

Secondly, you need to understand that the U.S. Government wants you in the Country to make a profit, and to put into the U.S. economy. Bringing over your family and operating a pool company in Kissimmee will not get your visa renewed - you need to find companies that will employ U.S. citizens and put money into the U.S. economy.

I read complaints that U.S. citizens get residency in the U.K. after being in the U.K for only 5-years and why can't Brits get that in the U.S.. Erm, we do? If you did some reading, you'd see that you need to be RESIDENT in the U.K. to get indefinite leave to remain. 'Resident' means that you are not on a work visa or a student, but are legally settled in some way (such as through your spouse, or fiancee). The U.K. Immigration process is very, very similar to the U.S. Immigration process with many of the time frames being almost identical. Don't kid yourselves that the U.K. just lets our 'Cousins' from over the pond in without restriction - it ain't happening.

You may not like what I say, but if you do some reading you'll see that the points I make are true. I just hate to see people putting themselves under all this stress and pressure because they believed someone who thought they knew what they were talking about...

[DBN Florida]

Hello there! I'm a long time listener, first time caller,

I had to post something, as I'm rather surprised on the attitude of so many people on this forum, may of them being Treaty Investor (E) visa holders. Many seem to have the belief that they are entitled to have a visa granted to them, and that, just by virtue of being British, they should automatically be granted legal permanent residency in the U.S. upon expiry of their E-visa.

The CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) clearly states that the Treaty Investor visa is not permanent, and I quote - "Intends to depart from the United States upon the termination of E'2 status".

Secondly, you need to understand that the U.S. Government wants you in the Country to make a profit, and to put into the U.S. economy. Bringing over your family and operating a pool company in Kissimmee will not get your visa renewed - you need to find companies that will employ U.S. citizens and put money into the U.S. economy.

I read complaints that U.S. citizens get residency in the U.K. after being in the U.K for only 5-years and why can't Brits get that in the U.S.. Erm, we do? If you did some reading, you'd see that you need to be RESIDENT in the U.K. to get indefinite leave to remain. 'Resident' means that you are not on a work visa or a student, but are legally settled in some way (such as through your spouse, or fiancee). The U.K. Immigration process is very, very similar to the U.S. Immigration process with many of the time frames being almost identical. Don't kid yourselves that the U.K. just lets our 'Cousins' from over the pond in without restriction - it ain't happening.

You may not like what I say, but if you do some reading you'll see that the points I make are true. I just hate to see people putting themselves under all this stress and pressure because they believed someone who thought they knew what they were talking about...

Servo fides

[peter gold]

I wrote this for someone elsea web site and hope it helps.
ESSENTIAL CHECKLIST BEFORE UNDERTAKING ANY US BUSINESS PURCHASE AND TO ENSURE COMPIANCE WITH E-2 VISA COMPLIANCE
Treaty Investor (E2 Visa)
You must be coming to the United States to carry on substantial trade or to develop and direct the operations of an enterprise in which you have or are actively in the process of investing, a substantial amount of capital.
E-2 visas are nonimmigrant categories, and do not confer permanent residence in the United States though they permit the applicant and qualified family members to live in the United States for an extended period.
1.
You or your company must be a national of a treaty country which includes the United Kingdom.
2. The investment must be substantial. It must be sufficient to ensure the successful operation of the enterprise. The percentage of investment for a low-cost enterprise must be higher than the percentage of investment in a high-cost enterprise.
3. The investment must be a real operating enterprise. Speculative or idle investment does not qualify.
4. The investment must generate significantly more income than needed to provide a living for you and your dependants, and it must have a significant economic impact in the United States economy. They are looking for at least $38,000 income a year to support wife and child and two US employees.5.
5. You must have control of the funds, and the investment must be at risk. For the purpose of measuring the investment, loans secured with the assets of the investment enterprise are not counted.
Investments, however, may be prospective, provided that the funds are irrevocably committed to the investment, contingent only upon the issuance of the visa.
There is no fixed amount which is considered "substantial." A substantial amount of capital constitutes that amount which is ample to ensure the investor’s financial commitment to the successful operation of the enterprise as measured by the proportionality test.
The "proportionality test" compares the total amount invested in the enterprise with the cost of establishing a viable enterprise of the nature contemplated or the amount of capital needed to purchase an existing enterprise. Such comparison constitutes the percentage of your investment in the enterprise. That percentage must compare favorably in the fashion of an inverted sliding scale starting with a high percentage of investment for a lower cost enterprise. The percentage of investment decreases at a gradual rate as the cost of the business increases.
MINIMUM INVESTMENT OF $135,000 OF YOUR FUNDS is suggested by me IMHO)
A marginal enterprise is an enterprise which does not have the capacity to generate significantly more than enough income to provide a living for your family and other alien employees.
You must have the intention of departing the US upon conclusion of the commercial activities. Nevertheless, holders of E-visas may reside in the US as long as they continue to meet E-visa qualifications.
Spouses and children under age 21 qualify for derivative E-visas based on the principal applicant’s qualification.

[InnVic]

Peter you know I have the utmost respect for your opinion but I do have to point out that the text you have posted is AN INTERPRETATION of the FAM guidelines and specification for qualification for E2 status. Whilst the interpretation you have given is useful and if adhered to should lead to Visa success I do think that the most important document any potential (or current) E2 visa holder should read is the Foreign Affairs Manual that the guy (or gal) adjudicating you case is working from. http://www.foia.state.gov/masterdocs/09fam/0941051N.pdf

[peter gold]

Agree use this as only a guide and the rules as the bible

[Bobby]

Hello there! I'm a long time listener, first time caller,

Bringing over your family and operating a pool company in Kissimmee will not get your visa renewed - you need to find companies that will employ U.S. citizens and put money into the U.S. economy.



Perhaps you should have remained a "listener" because your first call into the station is complete crap, ........and I don't throw criticism around without backing it up.

I own and operate a pool company in town and I know of at least 4 others doing the same who have had no problems with visas. .....so perhaps you'd like to use another example, or perhaps offer some assistance and tell everyone, who are obviously dying to know, how to make a success of it.

I really don't know what I'm doing, ....so any help would be welcomed.

Bobby
_________________________________________________
Just telling it like it is.

[anniefromessex]

Nice one Bobby, I wait with bated breath!!

Love Anniexxx

[peter gold]

Bobby tell it as it is as always

[Susie]

Hello there! I'm a long time listener, first time caller,

I had to post something, as I'm rather surprised on the attitude of so many people on this forum, may of them being Treaty Investor (E) visa holders. Many seem to have the belief that they are entitled to have a visa granted to them, and that, just by virtue of being British, they should automatically be granted legal permanent residency in the U.S. upon expiry of their E-visa.

The CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) clearly states that the Treaty Investor visa is not permanent, and I quote - "Intends to depart from the United States upon the termination of E'2 status".

Secondly, you need to understand that the U.S. Government wants you in the Country to make a profit, and to put into the U.S. economy. Bringing over your family and operating a pool company in Kissimmee will not get your visa renewed - you need to find companies that will employ U.S. citizens and put money into the U.S. economy.

I read complaints that U.S. citizens get residency in the U.K. after being in the U.K for only 5-years and why can't Brits get that in the U.S.. Erm, we do? If you did some reading, you'd see that you need to be RESIDENT in the U.K. to get indefinite leave to remain. 'Resident' means that you are not on a work visa or a student, but are legally settled in some way (such as through your spouse, or fiancee). The U.K. Immigration process is very, very similar to the U.S. Immigration process with many of the time frames being almost identical. Don't kid yourselves that the U.K. just lets our 'Cousins' from over the pond in without restriction - it ain't happening.

You may not like what I say, but if you do some reading you'll see that the points I make are true. I just hate to see people putting themselves under all this stress and pressure because they believed someone who thought they knew what they were talking about...

Servo fides


Hi

Thanks for sharing your opinion which I respect, but sorry to say I disagree with some of your comments.

Yes your right, so many are under constant stress for fear of their biz not performing well and visa's may not be renewed. Many are also stressed out because they are landlocked whilst their visa's are under review so cannot return to their home country is a close loved once is seriously ill. Many are stressed cos their children will have not status at 21 years

At a guess I would say that 95% of members would agree with me when I say we understand that it is a not a right to live in someone else's country and if we choose to do so we must live by their rules, but what I personally have an issue with is the total lack of compassion or common sense in dealing with investors or immigrants who's partner has passed or family abroad seriously ill.

Just because many of us are British we should not be entitle to any special treatment, especially as there is no special relationship between the UK and USA and yes we should employ USC or LPR , make a profit and pay taxes.

But for whatever reason many biz have their good trading years and not so good trading years which does not allow E 2 people to have peace of mind.

Oh and if you are a very successful E 2 er then you can get a green card but not directly from E status, it can and has been done

For an American to get residency in the UK they have to invest a huge amount of money in the UK and the same applies in the USA by way of EB5

If we (UK/USA) have a special relationship then immigration to and from the uk/usa should be lightened up and add a ton of compassion and common sense bothways

[Munish]

:welcome: DBN Florida,

I have to say, I've been a member for six months, and in that time I cannot recollect a single posting that people think they E2 is a path to permanent residency so I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. As far as I can recollect every member I am aware of knows non-immigrant visas, of which the E visa is one of them, confers no right of legal permanent residency.

What I have seen are campaigning efforts to change the law so an E2 in certain circumstances may lead to a green card, but that is entirely separate issue from what you are alleging.

What I have also seen are justifed complaints with the immigration process regarding all visas, but particularly with the processing of E and L renewals. It's pointless describing laws and rules to longtime members especially the E holders since they seem aware of the requirements. However, nothing can stop a non-immigrant from adjusting to immigrant status if the opportunity arises. That is straight from the Federal courts.

On the subject of thinking we are entitled to preferential right because we are British, I have not seen any mention of that at all - I don't recollect any person expressing an opinion either way. There are many discussions on British issues but that is because most of the members who regularly post are British.

However, I am happy to say I do believe certain countries should get preferential treatment including Britain. There is also plenty of mention of the "special relationship" for good reason. One example is tens of housands of British troops as well as, to a lesser extent, other nationalities having died or risked their lives fighting alongside American troops.

[JulieC]

That was a brave first post, DBN, might be nice if you posted in the introductions section and told us a bit about yourself, if you have and I have missed it, I apologise.

No one on here ever said people on E2 were entitled to stay permanently. Everyone on this visa knows the law as it stands currently. But this is a campaigning site and are trying to change the law, particularly in respect of children who can spend 15 years in the US, go totally through the education system and be totally American in culture and outlook and then have to go back to what is to them an alien country at 21. Quite apart from anything else this is a huge loss to America and a waste of ressources in that America pays to educate them and then throws them out. The law is the law but laws can be changed, I dont think saying you knew all this before you came and I told you so if it goes wrong is immensely contructive on a site such as this one.

Also on your point re Americans emigrating to the UK, you need to remember that E2 is a treaty and that Americans who go to the UK under the same treaty can achieve permanent residence under it, Brits going to the US cannot. That is one sided.

[SHEILA 13]

Hello DBN Florida,I think it would be a good idea to introduce yourself then perhaps we can understand more"where you are coming from"

[kirtida8]

:welcome: DBN Florida from an E-2er who is fully aware of my non-immigrant status. I think that Munish, Susie and JulieC have answered your post very well so I won't add anything further. Maybe you have just misinterpreted the posts you've read to come to your conclusions?

[Paul King]

Just a few of my thoughts:

1 I am perfectly aware that E visas are non-immigrant temporary visas. I am completely fine with it being temporary and indefinitely renewed on a 5 year basis assuming my business adheres to the rules and they are fairly interpreted.

2 Congress enacted this legislation specifically to encourage non-US investement and job creation in the US so why make the whole process so difficult to go through (especially in the US embassy in London). Why not just do away with this visa classification completely if the US don't really want it?

3 Nowhere in the rules does it specifically state that one must have US employees on W2 salary. If this is now a specific requirement the laws should be changed to reflect this. (This won't happen because it's just a de facto requirement for the US embassy in London, not elsewhere in the world).

4 Nowhere in the rules does it specifically state what is considered marginal, or considerable income, or substantial investement. This is at the discretion of the consular officer and is obviously being inconsistently evaluated.

My visa was denied on the grounds that my company was not a real commercial enterprise - when it has been in operation for 5 years, and is a registered investment advisor in Vermont. The consular officer basically accused me of fabricating evidence, and assumed any document that was not federal (i.e. tax returns) could have been "just made up".

This "guilty until proven innocent" process appears to go againt the original intent of the legislation that created the E-2 visa classification in the first place, especially in the US embassy in London.

I'll let everyone know how things turn out for me and my family.

[kirtida8]

Thanks for the update Paul. Yes things do seem to be stacked against E-2ers at the moment - as no one really seems to know what criteria are supposed to be met. It seems as though the FAM regs are not really being followed at least not by London IMHO. Best wishes to you and your family and hope you can get things resolved in a positive way.

[Kriz1]

It E2 people knew that as long as their business was playing by the rules...they were safe ...and would get a 5 year renewel...then I would think most would be happy..or happier...if their kids could go on to get a work permit that could be renewed for 10 years giving them a chance at a greencard...I think most would be happy...

[peter gold]

Paul
Are you a sole trader giving investment advice to clients?
Do you have any employees?
Do you have a leased office?
This information will help others who need the full picture

[Paul King]

Peter,

I am a trader, independent investment advisor, trading coach, author/publisher and hedge fund manager. I have trading clients all over the world and my business is run completely online apart from the financial advice to local Vermonters. I do have a leased office in Middlebury VT, but the rent is relatively cheap for the space I have, and the consular officer thought it was not "significant" ("Is that all" was his comment).

I do have an employee but she is on a commission-based contract and has not generated significant sales yet.

This business only recently became relatively successful (November last year) so I do not have a tax return to demonstrate this success yet - the consular officer said that he "didn't believe in big turnarounds" and would not take current year cashflow into account. I believe he thought we'd had long enough to make this work out and wanted to see tax returns with significant income from prior years.

Anyone who has W2 employees and tax returns with significant revenue on should be OK for renewal (even in UK) as long as they are consistent (i.e. don't have a bad year especially the one before renewal or else).

As for me, I am probably looking to relocate my business to a country/environment that actually values my contribution to the local economy and wants me to be there. Montreal is only 3 hours North of where I am now. Anyone else have any suggestions for good locations?

[JulieC]

Did you initially get 5 years or 2 years, Paul? If it was 5 and only just became profitable i have to say in a way you can understand where the visa officer is coming from. They are also not keen on online businesses, as you rightly say they can be run anywhere and you dont have to be in the US.
Locations. Anywhere in the EEC. Belize, Cayman and the Bahamas all give you residence with investment in property. No work permit but online businesses do have advantages. I dont think Canada is much easier than the US.

[Paul King]

5 years total, 2 years on an E-2 in the US, and then 3 via initial approval through the US embassy in London.

I've invested over $250k into this business over the 5 years, and yes, it's taken longer than planned to get to "significant" revenue, just needed it to be about 12 months sooner than it was.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[peter gold]

Anyone who has W2 employees and tax returns with significant revenue on should be OK for renewal (even in UK) as long as they are consistent (i.e. don't have a bad year especially the one before renewal or else).

Paul this is the truth of what is ahppening now , and if you can demonstrate you are contributing to the economy. I regret your business whilst successful did not have the evidence and you appear to be a sole trader finacially benefitting yourself an no one else.
Sorry mate

[kirtida8]

(i.e. don't have a bad year especially the one before renewal or else).


This was one of the main reasons that I extended my stay instead of renewing, as last year I made an operating loss due to the litigation and the "loss" of my 2 other businesses. I weighed all my options and this was the best one for me despite being landlocked, and subsequently not being able to return home for my sister's funeral. Prior to that, my businesses were hugely profitable and had grown by over 200%, but now I am back to square one and building up a 3rd business. I doubt that this year will show a profit due to the huge loans I had to take out to purchase the business and the continuing cost of litigation, despite the business having already grown by 50% or more. Maybe now you may understand where my concerns (and sometimes pessimism?) comes from with regards to my own renewal - and in 2009 I will again have to chose between that or extending once again.

[Paul King]

"finacially benefitting yourself an no one else"

Well, if you don't count my financial advice clients, and people I teach to trade who subsequently stop losing money and start making it :-)

This obvioulsy doesn't count for anything when it comes to E-2 status though.

[britcan]

Peter,

I am a trader, independent investment advisor, trading coach, author/publisher and hedge fund manager. I have trading clients all over the world and my business is run completely online apart from the financial advice to local Vermonters. I do have a leased office in Middlebury VT, but the rent is relatively cheap for the space I have, and the consular officer thought it was not "significant" ("Is that all" was his comment).

I do have an employee but she is on a commission-based contract and has not generated significant sales yet.

This business only recently became relatively successful (November last year) so I do not have a tax return to demonstrate this success yet - the consular officer said that he "didn't believe in big turnarounds" and would not take current year cashflow into account. I believe he thought we'd had long enough to make this work out and wanted to see tax returns with significant income from prior years.

Anyone who has W2 employees and tax returns with significant revenue on should be OK for renewal (even in UK) as long as they are consistent (i.e. don't have a bad year especially the one before renewal or else).

As for me, I am probably looking to relocate my business to a country/environment that actually values my contribution to the local economy and wants me to be there. Montreal is only 3 hours North of where I am now. Anyone else have any suggestions for good locations?


Take it from an English person who has just moved from Ontario...DO NOT UNDER ANY circumstances move to Montreal- they do not speak ENGLish FIRST.They are anti anyone who is not born and bred in Quebec..

[britcan]

you could try Toronto.

[britcan]

do you have your CFP? If you do I may have some contacts for you.

[Paul King]

I have my Series 65 Uniform Invstement Advisor Law exam.

Now back in US on visa waiver. Meeting with immigration attorney very soon to plan next steps.

[britcan]

I have my Series 65 Uniform Invstement Advisor Law exam.

Now back in US on visa waiver. Meeting with immigration attorney very soon to plan next steps.


You might want to go to

www.cfp.net

and see if it is recognised as a qualification in Canada

[Jax]

I am sorry for your news our visa was renewed last week but only for 2 years saying business was marginal but he got upset because we also extented our I-94 by going on holiday before our visa expired he seemed upset by this
Hope it works out for you Jax

[Paul King]

Jax,

Glad you got your renewal (if only for 2 years). I believe in my case the officer thought extending status by leaving and returning, although completely legitimate, was a "trick" to get an extra 2 years (land-locked of course).

He basically accused us of being out of status for 2 years and wanted to see proof/photocopies of our I-94 (which of course we didn't have). My immigration attorney told me afterwards that he could have easily looked up our arrival and departure history to check we were in status the whole time.

This was right at the start of the interview and it went downhill from there. I recommend that if anyone has extended their status in the US in this way that they photocopy the I-94 before they leave the US so they can present it as proof they were actually in-status.

(Having said this, the officer believed everything that wasn't a federal document was fabricated so I don't know why he should believe a photocopied I-94 would be genuine). Nobody ever said this process had to be fair or rational....

[kirtida8]

Congratulations Jax on getting your renewal - even if only for 2 years. Can you give us any more info on your interview? Are you back in the US or still waiting for your passports in the UK, as we have heard there are severe delays?

[Jax]

We are back in the Uk passports took 5 days to get back to us.The interview was ok but the problems started when we first got to the Embassy being told that the forms we had signed were all dated wrong saying that we had not reached December yet i tried to explain 2/12/07 is Feb 12 07 they would noy have it and crossed all dates out with a red pen.Then we were told business was marginal and 2 years was better than a refusal. Jax

[JulieC]

Do you agree with their assessment of marginality, Jax, or were they being unfair? Do you have employees etc.? Just it would be a help to others to know what they are looking for. Congrats on getting through anyway. Two years is better than nothing of course but not what you really wanted.

[Paul King]

It gets worse. Vermont introduced laws last year that mean I can't renew my driving license whilst here on a visa waiver; now I can't even drive to my office which I can't work from. :-(

[kirtida8]

Paul, surely you can still drive on your UK license?

[Paul King]

Apparently not if you've already had a VT license that's just expired and can't be renewed (according to VT DMV)

[anniefromessex]

Do you think they are trying to tell us something?!!

Love Anniexxx

[Susie]

Apparently not if you've already had a VT license that's just expired and can't be renewed (according to VT DMV)

It does seem that each state has it's own interpretation or rules about the issuing of drivers licenses. My attorney sent me an e-mail about this subject, which I did try to post and could only get some of it on the forum. I will have another go as it was important when I go a moment

Do each sate have their own website about renewal process?

[Kriz1]

It does Sue....my English friend has a AZ license and she does not have to renew till she is 75....she is on a greencard...married to an American...

We renew every 5 years in MA....we can renew every other year online....I'll not see the inside of the DMV up here again for 7 years....

[Margrit]

Nowadays, one employee after 5 years of operation is considered "marginal" by just about every European consulate. The investor obtains a visa to "develop and grow" the company, including hiring US workers. The general outlook of the consulates today is that if the investment is not obviously "beneficial to the local US economy", then the visa will be denied.

In London other businesses, with hundreds of thousands of dollars investment and 5+ employees are also routinely being denied, because the consular officers do not believe that the applicant has "non-immigrant intent".

Further, repeat renewals are in jeopardy as well, because London decides that after x years in the US, the investor should have trained a US employee to be in charge.

The overriding problem in London is that, although applicants sign a "statement of non-intent to stay in the US", for obvious reasons that is not their intent. It is certainly ridiculous to expect that investors return to the UK after years and years of running a business in the US, but the E-2 visa is officially a "non-immigrant" visa, and in London it is being considered just that.

Realistically, British investors have 3 choices:
1. They become "hostages" in the US and keep renewing their status every 2 years;
2. They can afford to invest $500,000 in a regional center (great green card option, even though some forum members don't seem to think so);
3. Find a US employer who sponsors them for the green card.

Keep fighting!!!

[Paul King]

Margrit,

Thanks for your comments, I've added them to the (rather large) pile of evidence that is input to my conclusion that E-2 status (and US immigration policy on the whole) basically sucks big time and being denied now has simply made me realize this sooner than I otherwise would have, and "forced" me to make plans to change things so that I'm no longer at the whim of a consular officer.

I'm fortunate that I have the resources, time, stubborness, supportive family and clients, and "portable" business revenue to take an alternate route to where I want to be.

I'll post more details when I've overcome this temporary inconvenience....

Everyone else that's on an E-2 - do something to put yourself on a path to permanent residence (not necessarily in the US) instead of living with the constant fear of denial hanging over your life and business every 5 years.

[Kriz1]

I don't think its ridiculous to expect investors to return to their own country ...the Brazilians around here do just that all the time...and have been for years...

Its ridiculous that there is no way for a visa like the E2 to become a greencard visa after say 10 years ...or why can't E2 kids get work permits...so they have a chance to make a life here of their own...

[anniefromessex]

Hi Margrit,

Your above post was excellent and in many ways it makes it very clear that those on E-2 should know that they have no right to be here indefinitely and the Consular Officers have every right to say you have immigrant intent otherwise why are you not returning to the UK or wherever you come from. I really do believe the E-2 should be scrapped to be honest with you, it hasn't kept up-to-date with modern thinking - after all why in all honesty would you invest hundreds of thousands on a business, hundreds of thousands on a home here, plus furnishings etc, if at the end of the day you didn't really want to live here forever and the fear of returning from whence you came was no problem. I am not denigrating all those on E-2, far from it, after all that has been the only option for many many people who wanted to get away and start afresh elsewhere, what I am saying is there should be a different Visa that allows you the right (especially after spending the aforementioned amounts of money here) to stay, without having to jump through the hoops that you do. Whether you are employing Americans should not come into it, although I am sure even if that wasn't the rule, still many Americans would be employed by us, but the fact that you have invested all this money, you are investing in the country every day by just going shopping, so what more do they want from us - blood I think!!!

The other thing that I cannot get my head round and I just wish they experienced it in their own lives, is that after so many years you should have employed an American to run the business. For fear of being hauled over the coals, I have yet to hear of anybody being able to trust an "American" to run their business in the way you would want it run - that goes for England too cos nobody would ever run your business with YOUR best interests in mind - after all why should he/she - what does she get out of it.

Just imho.

Love Anniexxx

[bobinalbuquerque]

anniefromessex.........I'm disappointed that you feel so frustrated about E2 living and the U.S. Many of the points you raise though are part and parcel of what the E2 is and indeed has been since its inception.Anyone who has decided on the E2 route should most certainly be aware of the limitations and for sure there must be many who armed with this knowledge decide it is not the visa for them.Fortunately sites such as this give prospective interested individuals a broader sense of understanding than certainly was available to me some 15 years ago.I have no time for blame games but instead focus on the dozens of positives that living and working here provide myself and family.

As to "never having heard of anyone trusting an American to run their business".......well surprise,surprise, you have now.Regards your final thoughts on the ability of employees to run and manage businesses ,rest assured this happens every day of the week in millions of businesses around the globe.

[McSporran]

Nowadays, one employee after 5 years of operation is considered "marginal" by just about every European consulate. The investor obtains a visa to "develop and grow" the company, including hiring US workers. The general outlook of the consulates today is that if the investment is not obviously "beneficial to the local US economy", then the visa will be denied.

In London other businesses, with hundreds of thousands of dollars investment and 5+ employees are also routinely being denied, because the consular officers do not believe that the applicant has "non-immigrant intent".

Further, repeat renewals are in jeopardy as well, because London decides that after x years in the US, the investor should have trained a US employee to be in charge.

The overriding problem in London is that, although applicants sign a "statement of non-intent to stay in the US", for obvious reasons that is not their intent. It is certainly ridiculous to expect that investors return to the UK after years and years of running a business in the US, but the E-2 visa is officially a "non-immigrant" visa, and in London it is being considered just that.

Realistically, British investors have 3 choices:
1. They become "hostages" in the US and keep renewing their status every 2 years;
2. They can afford to invest $500,000 in a regional center (great green card option, even though some forum members don't seem to think so);
3. Find a US employer who sponsors them for the green card.

Keep fighting!!!

Hi Margrit,

Please do forgive me if I'm missed a post explaining this...but are these your opinions for facts based on a point of law?
I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it worries me when these "hard and fast" statements are made...and that other member of the forum may take them as law.

[peter gold]

Much of what Margrit has stated is how the law is being applied in Consular offices. It certainly is not an accurate statement of law.
Please do not consider just renewing your status in the US and not renewing the visa as this seems to be frowned upon by the Consul in London.
Best place to find how the law is being applied and what an E2 applicant should do to comply is to look at the Fam Rules 9 Fam 41.51 as they are the guidelines applied by the officer and prescribed by the US Dept of State Foreign Affairs
see http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87220.pdf

[InnVic]

- after all why in all honesty would you invest hundreds of thousands on a business, hundreds of thousands on a home here, plus furnishings etc, if at the end of the day you didn't really want to live here forever



But thats exactly what my husband and I plan on doing - we never saw USA as a permanent, or even long term venture. 5-7 years max. Its an adventure and then we plan to move on. The visa suits up perfectly - although I would be happier with a simpler and less stressful renewal process. The problem lies with people WANTING this to be more than it is. The US has no motivation to allow permanent status from E2 investors as it has provision in E5 which involves a greater investment but provides the GC that people want. You have to face it its not an open society and they cannot let everyone in that wants to come (Unlike the UK it seems!) Don't get blinkered by wanting the dream at any cost- it can become a nightmare if you are not prepared for the limitations.

[lxh11]

Thank heavens, Margrit, bobinalbequrque & InnVic have both very eloquently said what I have been thinking, but wondering if I was missing something!

If everyone knows the stipulations surrounding the E-2, yet still comes here will very clear intent to stay, then I don't understand why people feel they have a leg to stand on to fight the authorities.

While Margrit may be talking in generalities, if for the most part it's true, then that's that.

Does anyone know the actual statistics of those coming here on an E2 that manage to turn it round into PR/GC?

Liz

[Kriz1]

A few years ago I was in a few Asian forums...where they wanted the E2 to be based more on Education...the feeling was if you got a greencard after say 5 years and your company went to the dogs...you would have something to fall back on and find it easier to get a job....which may make the US Gov happier about making the E2 a greencard visa...

[chris]

I think what we are now seeing and it seems to born out by Margrits personal statements is that the US is now adjudicating immigration applications per se, to the letter of the law and what we are seeing is a much stricter interpretation of the law than has been the case. This of course coincides with the White House having lost the immigration overhaul and it smacks of 'taking the bat and ball home' if they don't get their way. Of course in this little game of White House vs Congress/Senate the real victims are the likes of us and like us. IMHO
Taking another personal statement by Margrit about number of employees and this will probably be on my head stone. It is not the role of the private sector to create jobs for jobs sake. The primary reason for the existence of a for-profit, privately owned business is to make profit for its owners and stockholders. If jobs are created as part of that plan, then fine and dandy. Creating jobs for jobs sake is the role of government. When the Consul or whoever begin talking out of their butt ends about numbers of employees, it is not for them to say. The investor has the final decision on what THEIR financial investment is used for. If the Americans applied the same illogical logic to their own businesses as are applied to us, there would be riots on the streets. IMHO
On a final note about 'Blame Games'. OK, not everyone on this site has had a fair deal on the cards and have to find anyone who is 100% happy tickedy boo with how we are all treated (and please spare me the 'you knew what you were getting into at the outset - it doesn't wash with me, not since 9/11). Postings on this site will have a real mixture of pro-pro go for it and no, no don't do it. It is true, it does not work out for everyone here in the USA for a multitude of reasons, but lets not get back into the looking at life through rose tinted as if it's all a bowl of sweet smelling roses - cos it isn't.

[joe]

[QUOTE=chris;30538] please spare me the 'you knew what you were getting into at the outset QUOTE]

unfortunately Chris, much of what is written on boards like this comes back to exactly this issue. as much as i would love my (and everyone else's) E2 to magically turn into a gc it ain't gonna happen.

that will not stop me exploring whatever options are open to me and supporting efforts to change the terms of the E2 but, when push comes to shove, if i have to leave i will and it will not be the FAULT of the immigration service as they are holding me to the conditions upon which i willingly entered.

it is THEIR game we are playing. they get to set the rules

Joe

[chris]

Joe,
Props to you for simply not lying down and accepting the status quo.
Many people crow on about 'how you knew what you were getting into' as a sort of excuse for not cutting it. It's almost a put up or shut attitude. I don't buy it.
Nothing, but nothing ever stays the same. Status Quo's do change, but more often do so because of the efforts of people keen to bring about change.
Take the E2 Spouse. When we arrived in 2000 the spouse was a non-person. No SS#, no work authorisation, no nothing. In 2003/4 it all changed and E2 spouses suddenly got a pretty good deal, which in many cases has opened up an avenue to GC status for the whole family unit. I cannot believe for one minute that Michael Jerkoff or whoever it was back in 2003/4 woke up one morning and announced 'let's give E2 spouses the authority to work. No. It probably happened because people elsewhere put forward a pretty effcetive argument and case for change and the politicians changed it. That to me says that more change can be made to our visas with reasoned argument, rather than an emotional appeal that it's not fair. BobinAlberqueque (did I spell it right - move to NY Bob, it's easier to spell!) has developed with the local Congressman a reasoned argument/proposition for a change in E2 and if successful will become a nice big cork to place in the mouths of all those who simply accept the norm, roll over and do nothing about it.

[DebbieM]

OK E-2 might not be a permanent visa pe se, but it is a renewable visa providing your business meets all the criteria, shouldn't you be able to stay here for as long as you want to providing you have a good profitable business? As far as I am aware there is no maximum amount of renewals as there is with L-1, therefore as long as you keep ticking the boxes then you should be able to stay???????

However, the rules over the past 4 years in particular seem to be changing/becoming tighter and the original criteria when an application was submitted no longer satisfies the visa requirements upon renewal - in other words the goal posts are being moved.

IMO this is really unfair for those people who planned to build their business around certain criteria i.e subcontractors vs employees etc and then find at renewal that things have changed.

Whilst I agree with Joe in essence that we all remain here as long as we "comply to the conditions upon which I willingly entered" however, if those conditions have now changed and continue to change how on earth can you steer and direct a business in one direction if someone is changing the rules that you should go in another.

The latest rumbling I've heard is that they are looking for E-2 to now have premises!!!! Bet that wasn't in a lot of original business plans.

Deb

[chris]

Good post Debbie. props to you.
You're right. Tha goalposts do keep getting moved so the argument about you know what you were letting yourself in for does not wash.
If you are to have a tickbox type renewal then it's simple and straightforward, but unfortunately humans are involved and that's where the problem lies. You end up with personal spin. You can almost argue that it becomes which side of the bed did they get out of and the color of your eyes.

[byjove]

Ah! E2 needing premises! That was spinning when we put in our application in 03. But there maybe ways to overcome that! Which I dont want to post on the open forum for fears of "lurkers" if ya'll know what I mean!! nudge, nugde! hehehehe

What about people who thought ok! this is a part of my life I want to branch out, get me E2 stay a while then come back! What if you LIKE the life you have now and your growing a successful business? There should be a way to BUY your self into a GC say $50,000 per family member, put into the economy to boost taxes and such like and overall being seen to improve the USA!

[Jax]

I agree with Deb we thought we met the criteria from what we were told when our E2 was granted but they seem to move the goal posts to suit ,yes e got a renewal but 2 years and not the 5 years most people talk about,so who decides whats worth 2 and whats worth 5 or even no renewal. Jax

[charliesmum]

I must admit I was surprised when I heard you had got a 2 year renewal, as I thought they were all for 5 years.

Were you interviewed by Glenn or was it someone else?

Zoe

[MrsL]

I haven't heard that E2 businesses must have premises, but when we went to renew our occupational license at Osceola County we were sent the license with a restriction that we couldn't employ anybody outside of the family! We phoned to ask about this and even though our landscaping equipment is kept in a lock up and that is where the guys go every morning, because it doesn't have an office attached, it means we are running the business from home which isn't zoned for us to hire employees.

The person we spoke to Osceola County was very rude and said that we needed to use the office to issue estimates and do the payroll. We told her that estimates are written up at the customer site and the payroll is processed by a payroll company, but there was no budging.

So we now have the added expense of renting office space that is not needed and not used ! I believe that it is only Osceola County that are enforcing these rules, but I fully expect other counties to follow.

[chris]

ByJove,
E2 needing premises! That's another one of those wonderful gems that keeps cropping up and for the life of me I just wish the State Dept civil servants would at least put one foot into the 21st century and the changing face of the world of work.
Take a mobile locksmith. Does he need an office or storefront? Does a commercial cleaning company need offices when all their work is done at their clients premises and all the equipment is in the back of the van?
Does a successful Ebay trader need a glandiferous office or storefront?
To all those examples, of course they don't need premises to conduct legitimate and succesful business. It is the mindset of the civil servant playing judge and jury. They work within a traditional office environment, where the working day consists of getting up, commuting and entering a commercia; office. It follows they based their value judgements on their take of what constitutes the commercial world. It may be theirs , but it is not everybody's. Some years ago Rank Xerox took the bold step of offereing home based working to some of their senior people, because their was no benefit gained from a traditional work environment. Technology was used to interconnect them all and productivity did not suffer and the bottom line on overheads was reduced. I presume if that scenario was presented to the Embassy they would have poo pood it.
Just once I wish these people would think out of the box and use some of the wonderful thing called commonsense that him upstairs gave to us all.

[Margrit]

Quote

... there are consulates that are much more "lenient"). The investor green card is not a bad option ... not at all!
:)

Your comment "there are consulates that are much more lenient" worries me.

This is worng, badly wrong, if this is really happening and should be shown up and proven.

The way I see it is, your either qualify for a visa or not, eg uniformed requirements.

I do have my suspicions this has and is happening, would just love the proof so I could then inform the press

[charliesmum]

We were asked about premises at our interview, but when we said all we had was a lock up and everything else was done from home, the guy was quite happy. He actually said no of course you don't need an office just to answer the phone from.

Zoe

[peter gold]

With the many fraudulent applications of late they are scrutinizng that the business is real and so they want to see somewhere away from a hokme base.
Howeve if say a part of the home is set up as an a office and o are a home based businessthey will then want evidence of employees and to show a viable business justifying employing the visa holder as a manager.
If you have say an internet business working at home, or a pool buiness, no employees they will not be happy, and expect a refusal

[Margrit]

No, the E-2 regulations have not changed. Just, for the last 2 years, the change is so obvious, and so many visa applications have been denied in London for businesses that 3 years ago would have been approved with flying colors, that you just have to observe very carefully what is happening.

1. There are quite a few new applicants that are being called for so-called interviews to "justify or defend" their application. A few succeed, with most of their visas being issued for only two years. It seems that applicants are a bit better off, if they settle in a state where no one generally ventures. Most immigration attorneys advise their clients not even to appear for the interview if the invitation letter says " the business does not seem approvable, but we give you a chance to prove otherwise". A flat denial stamp in the passport at the time of the interview is just not helpful if applicants have plans to re-enter or to seek other venues.

2. "Non-intent to immigrate" is THE issue. I don't doubt that some British investors look forward to returning home. But that is certainly not the norm. Personally, I have have only seen British investors return home when their business failed (and weird things can happen to investors who choose to partner-up) or if their visa was denied.

3. British E-2 holders in Florida need to organize to get their case heard by the state authorities. Here and there I know of someone who contacted state authorities ... but one case at a time doesn't seem efficient.
You collect data on who is here, how much you have invested altogether, how many US citizens you employ in all, and you explain how you are treated by the bureaucrats in London who seem to have an agenda that is unexplained and untouchable.

4. To be honest, no one in America knows anything about the plight of E-2 visa holders, not even state officials. Illegal immigration has overshadowed the immigration process, and fear and indifference rule.

5. No, I am not an immigration attorney, but for the last ten years, I have worked exclusively with immigration law firms. You may not think so, but the immigration attorneys need your help in order to be able help you.

I'm on your side (my best friends had to return to England this year because their US business partner had stolen all their assets and there was no business left).

[kirtida8]

Thank you Margrit for your input - it does help to have a slightly different perspective to help us navigate through all the red tape. Have you been in touch with Susie? She has been working very hard to try and get changes made for children especially, and any help or insight you could give to her would I'm sure be appreciated. Maybe you could give us some guidelines on what we could do or how we can help the immigration attorneys to help us better? Susie and Munish have already drafted amendments to the Dream Act that we are hoping to forward to Senators etc soon. Have you had a chance to look at it yet? Susie has also written a white paper on the economic impact of foreign investors in Florida, but unfortunately the group that it was forwarded to have sat on it and she is having to find other avenues to get it out there.
Welcome to the fight, hope to get to know you better.

[InnVic]

No, the E-2 regulations have not changed. Just, for the last 2 years, the change is so obvious, and so many visa applications have been denied in London for businesses that 3 years ago would have been approved with flying colors, that you just have to observe very carefully what is happening.I believe the only thing to change is the application of the rules. The thing about E2 visa is that there is a degree of discretion - in the past when there was little or no abuse the rules were applied with a lose reign - now they are aware that they system is being abused it appears they are applying the rules more rigidly

1. There are quite a few new applicants that are being called for so-called interviews to "justify or defend" their application. A few succeed, with most of their visas being issued for only two years. It seems that applicants are a bit better off, if they settle in a state where no one generally ventures. Most immigration attorneys advise their clients not even to appear for the interview if the invitation letter says " the business does not seem approvable, but we give you a chance to prove otherwise". A flat denial stamp in the passport at the time of the interview is just not helpful if applicants have plans to re-enter or to seek other venues.MY understanding of this letter is for the applicant to prove that they actually "manage and direct" the business. many have bought businesses to get the visa but had nothing to do with the operation - to the best of my knowledge ALL E2 applicants get this letter - and it should not be taken as a sign that your visa will be denied

2. "Non-intent to immigrate" is THE issue. I don't doubt that some British investors look forward to returning home. But that is certainly not the norm. Personally, I have have only seen British investors return home when their business failed (and weird things can happen to investors who choose to partner-up) or if their visa was denied. This visa is intened for NON PERMANENT residence. - whilst the norm may be that people don't want to return to the Uk if they are happy to move to the US with E2 they should accept the limitations - not complain at a later stage that its not fair

3. British E-2 holders in Florida need to organize to get their case heard by the state authorities. Here and there I know of someone who contacted state authorities ... but one case at a time doesn't seem efficient.
You collect data on who is here, how much you have invested altogether, how many US citizens you employ in all, and you explain how you are treated by the bureaucrats in London who seem to have an agenda that is unexplained and untouchable.

4. To be honest, no one in America knows anything about the plight of E-2 visa holders, not even state officials. Illegal immigration has overshadowed the immigration process, and fear and indifference rule.

5. No, I am not an immigration attorney, but for the last ten years, I have worked exclusively with immigration law firms. You may not think so, but the immigration attorneys need your help in order to be able help you.

I'm on your side (my best friends had to return to England this year because their US business partner had stolen all their assets and there was no business left).

We seem to be getting alot of doom and gloom lately- I'd be interested how many SUCCESSFUL E2 applications/renewal go through. As we only get part of the story in most cases - this would be useful to add some balance to those denied

[Margrit]

The problem is real ... very real. No doom and gloom here.

You submit applications half as substantial and ten times as marginal to other consulates in Europe ... they are approved. No questions asked. No problem. It is just the same with renewals. Adjudication time anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. The E-2 regulations are the same for everyone. So, what is going on in London?? If you know, it would be very kind of you, if you could help all of us understand ...
Thank you.

[InnVic]

The problem is real ... very real. No doom and gloom here.

You submit applications half as substantial and ten times as marginal to other consulates in Europe ... they are approved. No questions asked. .

They system has obviously been abused and they are tightening up - on this forum we tend to hear mostly horror stories It has been mentioned before that most of the people on this forum are here because of problems or worries. If your visa renewal is going ahead all tickety boo then why would you need to google for help? This therefore gives us an inbalance of membership with most people confused, concerned or denied. I know I'll probably get shot down in flames but many who post here believe that E2 leads to Green card - so whats to say that they don't also believe a "marginal business" is passable, their "substantial investment" is going to qualify and their "non imigrant intent" is easy to fake. If you don't understand the rules then its hard to present your application in the most convincing format. Couldn't this result in problems and denial? I don't know, maybe Europe has not the same numbers of E2 applicants and therefore not the same need to tighten the reigns....but wasn't there a story on here about a german baker that was recently denied? Perhaps its not just London after all.

[Kriz1]

If you try other countries forums...you'll see its not just the Brits having problems....

[Margrit]

Well. I can tell you only what I see on a daily basis ... big BIG differences in adjudication in various consulates. By the way, Toronto is no longer a piece of cake either. I thought it had to do with the higher number of applicants in those countries, but that can't be it either. After all, Japanese applicants are awarded over half of the E-2 visas every year.

[joe]

They system has obviously been abused and they are tightening up - on this forum we tend to hear mostly horror stories It has been mentioned before that most of the people on this forum are here because of problems or worries. If your visa renewal is going ahead all tickety boo then why would you need to google for help? This therefore gives us an inbalance of membership with most people confused, concerned or denied. I know I'll probably get shot down in flames but many who post here believe that E2 leads to Green card - so whats to say that they don't also believe a "marginal business" is passable, their "substantial investment" is going to qualify and their "non imigrant intent" is easy to fake. If you don't understand the rules then its hard to present your application in the most convincing format. Couldn't this result in problems and denial? I don't know, maybe Europe has not the same numbers of E2 applicants and therefore not the same need to tighten the reigns....but wasn't there a story on here about a german baker that was recently denied? Perhaps its not just London after all.

not shot down by me Innvic. i see the situation exactly as you and am grateful for you telling it as it is.

the reality of the situation is that the activities of the dodgers and scammers over the last few years have had an adverse affect on everyone. during the reign of the last treaty visa officer the process reached an all time low. the RECENT experiences with the "new" officer have been largely positive for those that had sound businesses with MANY renewals being granted and a fair few 5 year renewals being handed out.

its not all doom and gloom

Joe

[Margrit]

There was abuse, no doubt ... Today, however, having a application approved in London for a Florida business is like winning the lottery. It is not supposed to be that way. It is complicated to understand why in Frankfurt an E-2 is approved for $110,000 in escrow, no employees, while in London the visa is denied for an already made $325,000 investment into a business that employs 6 people. However, it is OK to keep playing the lottery .... There will always be some winners. ;)

[Kriz1]

Are the people on this site so we can know more facts....sometimes things are not black and white....and what can seem unfair can sometime come out very different when all the facts are in and we hear the story first hand...

[InnVic]

This is the problem we're given generalisations but no hard facts. Visas can be denied for a million and one reasons and I could easily speculate why those you mentioned could be either successful or denied. But speculation isn't fact. By spreading stories like this many people with E2 businesses that probably would get renewal are afraid to renew and end up landlocked with all the possible distress that can cause (and subsequent problems down the line when they do go to London and they are flagged for extending status.)

[peter gold]

This is the problem we're given generalisations but no hard facts. Visas can be denied for a million and one reasons and I could easily speculate why those you mentioned could be either successful or denied. But speculation isn't fact. By spreading stories like this many people with E2 businesses that probably would get renewal are afraid to renew and end up landlocked with all the possible distress that can cause (and subsequent problems down the line when they do go to London and they are flagged for extending status.)

AGREE 100%
LETS STOP SCAREMONGERING AND POST REAL FACTS PLEASE NOT HALF TRUTHS.

[Margrit]

Scaremongering .... :) I wish!!!!! I am afraid that you do not like the facts... I have spoken only about actual cases. Please sign on a few Florida West Coast immigration attorneys to participate in this forum. They tremble today at advising their British clients on how to possibly qualify for an E-2 visa in London. You know a good immigration attorney in Sarasota .. so, why not invite him to give his opinion on this forum? Thank you.

[Kriz1]

Are there links to the cases...can you get the people to join and give their side of the story in full...I'm not happy about secondhand info....and I'm not talking as a mod..just me... or talking about people who are not on the forum...unless we have links or the people are posting here...its unfair in my eyes not only to the people we are talking about...but also to others waiting to go to London who can't ask questions...and get answers from the horses mouth...
No-one is saying there is not a problem...people just need the stories first hand...this is just my 2 cents...

[Margrit]

I don't really know how to go about asking those people to join ... but I can try. My examples are of clients of immigration law firms with whom I work ... I cannot violate their privacy. Please know that I was asked by a forum member to share my experiences with you ... I don't want to cause any grief. You all know how complicated things have become in London. Immigration attorneys feel the same "despair"... If I can be helpful, I gladly will, but I am not on a "mission". I have been reading the opinions in this forum for a long time, but I did not join until I was asked. What I tell you is what I experience ... I have prepared E-2 visa applications for law firms for ten years and I am with the clients every step of the way ... It is understandable that you don't like the message ... but shooting the messenger is hardly helpful.

In the opinion of the some immigration attorneys, the British E-2 investor community is in this much trouble because they have often relied on the "advice" and "assistance" of people who did not have their best interest at heart. Of course it is more interesting and more consoling to listen to someone who tells you what you want to hear ... That, unfortunately, I cannot do :).

[Susie]

I wrote this for someone elsea web site and hope it helps.
ESSENTIAL CHECKLIST BEFORE UNDERTAKING ANY US BUSINESS PURCHASE AND TO ENSURE COMPIANCE WITH E-2 VISA COMPLIANCE
Treaty Investor (E2 Visa)
You must be coming to the United States to carry on substantial trade or to develop and direct the operations of an enterprise in which you have or are actively in the process of investing, a substantial amount of capital.
E-2 visas are nonimmigrant categories, and do not confer permanent residence in the United States though they permit the applicant and qualified family members to live in the United States for an extended period.
1.
You or your company must be a national of a treaty country which includes the United Kingdom.
2. The investment must be substantial. It must be sufficient to ensure the successful operation of the enterprise. The percentage of investment for a low-cost enterprise must be higher than the percentage of investment in a high-cost enterprise.
3. The investment must be a real operating enterprise. Speculative or idle investment does not qualify.
4. The investment must generate significantly more income than needed to provide a living for you and your dependants, and it must have a significant economic impact in the United States economy. They are looking for at least $38,000 income a year to support wife and child and two US employees.5.
5. You must have control of the funds, and the investment must be at risk. For the purpose of measuring the investment, loans secured with the assets of the investment enterprise are not counted.
Investments, however, may be prospective, provided that the funds are irrevocably committed to the investment, contingent only upon the issuance of the visa.
There is no fixed amount which is considered "substantial." A substantial amount of capital constitutes that amount which is ample to ensure the investor’s financial commitment to the successful operation of the enterprise as measured by the proportionality test.
The "proportionality test" compares the total amount invested in the enterprise with the cost of establishing a viable enterprise of the nature contemplated or the amount of capital needed to purchase an existing enterprise. Such comparison constitutes the percentage of your investment in the enterprise. That percentage must compare favorably in the fashion of an inverted sliding scale starting with a high percentage of investment for a lower cost enterprise. The percentage of investment decreases at a gradual rate as the cost of the business increases.
MINIMUM INVESTMENT OF $135,000 OF YOUR FUNDS is suggested by me IMHO)
A marginal enterprise is an enterprise which does not have the capacity to generate significantly more than enough income to provide a living for your family and other alien employees.
You must have the intention of departing the US upon conclusion of the commercial activities. Nevertheless, holders of E-visas may reside in the US as long as they continue to meet E-visa qualifications.
Spouses and children under age 21 qualify for derivative E-visas based on the principal applicant’s qualification.

Thanks Peter, very good points

I only would disagree with the amount of investment at $135,000, I heard, ( I know this is only hearsay) that the American Embassy are more like to approve if around the $200,000 mark

Also Heather Wilson's legislation to convert an E2 visa from non immigrant to immigrant visa (if passed) sets a min investment of $200,000

[Susie]

Thanks for the update Paul. Yes things do seem to be stacked against E-2ers at the moment - as no one really seems to know what criteria are supposed to be met. It seems as though the FAM regs are not really being followed at least not by London IMHO. Best wishes to you and your family and hope you can get things resolved in a positive way.

Well said Kay, totally agree

For what its worth the E2 visa does serve the purpose for which it was intended. A visa to allow a businessman/woman to come to the states to buy/start up a new biz and employ USC/LPR etc., on a tempory basis, whilst the biz is still trading and profitable. They are allowed to bring dependants, spouse and children under 21 years. But these poor dependant children have no choice where their parents bring them to live. I for one feel they are the forgotten children and should be giving a pathway to a green card, just like H1 B or L dependant children.

Most immigrants are aware of the rules and reg's and is the only way for them to be able to live the dream in many cases. People from the UK are excluded from the visa lottery and not all can afford the EB5 route.

Thats not to say that we as a group cannot support Congreswoman Heather Wilson and help get the rules and reg's changed especially when there has been so much talk of documenting the illegals and giving a possible route to a green card.

[Susie]

Just a few of my thoughts:

1 I am perfectly aware that E visas are non-immigrant temporary visas. I am completely fine with it being temporary and indefinitely renewed on a 5 year basis assuming my business adheres to the rules and they are fairly interpreted.

2 Congress enacted this legislation specifically to encourage non-US investement and job creation in the US so why make the whole process so difficult to go through (especially in the US embassy in London). Why not just do away with this visa classification completely if the US don't really want it?

3 Nowhere in the rules does it specifically state that one must have US employees on W2 salary. If this is now a specific requirement the laws should be changed to reflect this. (This won't happen because it's just a de facto requirement for the US embassy in London, not elsewhere in the world).

4 Nowhere in the rules does it specifically state what is considered marginal, or considerable income, or substantial investement. This is at the discretion of the consular officer and is obviously being inconsistently evaluated.

My visa was denied on the grounds that my company was not a real commercial enterprise - when it has been in operation for 5 years, and is a registered investment advisor in Vermont. The consular officer basically accused me of fabricating evidence, and assumed any document that was not federal (i.e. tax returns) could have been "just made up".

This "guilty until proven innocent" process appears to go againt the original intent of the legislation that created the E-2 visa classification in the first place, especially in the US embassy in London.

I'll let everyone know how things turn out for me and my family.


Hi Paul

Sorry to hear this, but thanks everso for sharing what's happened, please do keep us informed

You have certainly hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph

#Guilty till proven innocent#

In Fact

Section 214 of INA states (Words to this effect)

Every applicant shall be deemend an immigrant untill such times he/she proves to the consular officers satisfaction they are not

[Susie]

Nowadays, one employee after 5 years of operation is considered "marginal" by just about every European consulate. The investor obtains a visa to "develop and grow" the company, including hiring US workers. The general outlook of the consulates today is that if the investment is not obviously "beneficial to the local US economy", then the visa will be denied.

In London other businesses, with hundreds of thousands of dollars investment and 5+ employees are also routinely being denied, because the consular officers do not believe that the applicant has "non-immigrant intent".

Further, repeat renewals are in jeopardy as well, because London decides that after x years in the US, the investor should have trained a US employee to be in charge.

The overriding problem in London is that, although applicants sign a "statement of non-intent to stay in the US", for obvious reasons that is not their intent. It is certainly ridiculous to expect that investors return to the UK after years and years of running a business in the US, but the E-2 visa is officially a "non-immigrant" visa, and in London it is being considered just that.

Realistically, British investors have 3 choices:
1. They become "hostages" in the US and keep renewing their status every 2 years;
2. They can afford to invest $500,000 in a regional center (great green card option, even though some forum members don't seem to think so);
3. Find a US employer who sponsors them for the green card.

Keep fighting!!!



Hi Thanks for sharing your views, I respect them all but wondering if this is hearsay or fact or just your opinion.

Could you please clarify?

Based on your post, it seems after a number of years all E 2 holders are doomed one way or the other! not a pretty picture or sight, so they may as well discontinue this visa, if thats the case

We do intend to support Heather Wilson and keep fighting until we at least get an amendment to the CSPA to include a pathway to a green card for dependant E 2 children and a compassionate visa, trust me , I for one will never stop fighting for no nonsense immigration reforms, that are fair, balanced, reward legal immigrants, reunite families, whist securing the boarders

[Susie]

I don't think its ridiculous to expect investors to return to their own country ...the Brazilians around here do just that all the time...and have been for years...

Its ridiculous that there is no way for a visa like the E2 to become a greencard visa after say 10 years ...or why can't E2 kids get work permits...so they have a chance to make a life here of their own...



Well said Kris

Any child should ne able to get a work permit, even if they limit the number of hours worked per week, if nothing else allow these children to earn some pocket money to buy a few luxuries like their American peers

This should be looked into and added to our agenda, in the future

[Susie]

OK E-2 might not be a permanent visa pe se, but it is a renewable visa providing your business meets all the criteria, shouldn't you be able to stay here for as long as you want to providing you have a good profitable business? As far as I am aware there is no maximum amount of renewals as there is with L-1, therefore as long as you keep ticking the boxes then you should be able to stay???????

However, the rules over the past 4 years in particular seem to be changing/becoming tighter and the original criteria when an application was submitted no longer satisfies the visa requirements upon renewal - in other words the goal posts are being moved.

IMO this is really unfair for those people who planned to build their business around certain criteria i.e subcontractors vs employees etc and then find at renewal that things have changed.

Whilst I agree with Joe in essence that we all remain here as long as we "comply to the conditions upon which I willingly entered" however, if those conditions have now changed and continue to change how on earth can you steer and direct a business in one direction if someone is changing the rules that you should go in another.

The latest rumbling I've heard is that they are looking for E-2 to now have premises!!!! Bet that wasn't in a lot of original business plans.

Deb


Hi Deb

One of the main issues is that you could have identical cases. One visa application submitted in London and the other at a different American consulate.

A lot of the porblems are as a direct result of the examining officer's interpretation of the fam rules/reg's and laws

My immigration attorney attending the last but one committee meeting, he more or less said the same thing.

The American embassy goes in fits and starts, one minute giving two year renewals for a period of time then all of a sudden giving 5 years renewals, then change again to 2 year renewals

What reakky bugs me, is you can get an approval notice from a service centre, eg, they have examined and approved your case, only for the American Embassy to overturn this decision.

It does seem there is some in house problems between the two departments.

The again, a service centre and the American Embassy in London could approve you and when you arrive at the POE the immigration officer could deny entry and over rule the other two departments.

Seems, nothing is set in stone, the requirements are not clear and open to mis interpretation so easily

[Susie]

With the many fraudulent applications of late they are scrutinizng that the business is real and so they want to see somewhere away from a hokme base.
Howeve if say a part of the home is set up as an a office and o are a home based businessthey will then want evidence of employees and to show a viable business justifying employing the visa holder as a manager.
If you have say an internet business working at home, or a pool buiness, no employees they will not be happy, and expect a refusal

Yes Peter, your correct

The American Embassy is looking at all cases, much more closely due to recent scams by Dough Hall and others !!

I heard that a person who bought a biz from a certain company was denied a visa renewal last week at the Embassy, as the company he bought the biz from was under investigation!!!

I am currently trying to trace the person who was denied and make sure of the facts and will update if/when I find more info

[Susie]

No, the E-2 regulations have not changed. Just, for the last 2 years, the change is so obvious, and so many visa applications have been denied in London for businesses that 3 years ago would have been approved with flying colors, that you just have to observe very carefully what is happening.

1. There are quite a few new applicants that are being called for so-called interviews to "justify or defend" their application. A few succeed, with most of their visas being issued for only two years. It seems that applicants are a bit better off, if they settle in a state where no one generally ventures. Most immigration attorneys advise their clients not even to appear for the interview if the invitation letter says " the business does not seem approvable, but we give you a chance to prove otherwise". A flat denial stamp in the passport at the time of the interview is just not helpful if applicants have plans to re-enter or to seek other venues.

2. "Non-intent to immigrate" is THE issue. I don't doubt that some British investors look forward to returning home. But that is certainly not the norm. Personally, I have have only seen British investors return home when their business failed (and weird things can happen to investors who choose to partner-up) or if their visa was denied.

3. British E-2 holders in Florida need to organize to get their case heard by the state authorities. Here and there I know of someone who contacted state authorities ... but one case at a time doesn't seem efficient.
You collect data on who is here, how much you have invested altogether, how many US citizens you employ in all, and you explain how you are treated by the bureaucrats in London who seem to have an agenda that is unexplained and untouchable.

4. To be honest, no one in America knows anything about the plight of E-2 visa holders, not even state officials. Illegal immigration has overshadowed the immigration process, and fear and indifference rule.

5. No, I am not an immigration attorney, but for the last ten years, I have worked exclusively with immigration law firms. You may not think so, but the immigration attorneys need your help in order to be able help you.

I'm on your side (my best friends had to return to England this year because their US business partner had stolen all their assets and there was no business left).

Hi

Thanks for your suggestion at number 3, whilsst our site up till now has/is concentrating on the compassionate aspect of visa's, think we should start adding the economic effect on the USA if thousand of E 2 ers pull out of the USA.

I did write a white paper on this issue for another immigration committee, so hopefully will dig it out for our next committee meeting. There is a report called The Webber report and will try and search the net for it and post


Just so you know we are members/supporters of www.feivr.org and others

[anniefromessex]

People please, I really think we should listen to Margrit not bash her. I have always tried to tell it like it is - people don't like it really cos they can't believe it UNTIL IT HAPPENS TO THEM. I hardly think for one minute that Margrit is going to come onto this forum just to scare the living cr.. out of us - she is telling it from her own experiences and as she is bound by privacy laws then she can probably only tell half a story but I am sure she knows the other half but is just trying to warn us. I personally say thank you Margrit for being honest in what you are telling us - just wish more people would be honest and not try to sugar coat everything. I am sure there are probably hundreds of thousands of people getting approved, but at the end of the day as I think somebody else said, they are not going to bother posting on here - they have what they want - but you just wait until renewal time comes and they get denied!!! Take Jax for example, she was only given 2 years - why?!! Okay we don't know all her circumstances but instead of being able to relax and not worry too much about renewal, I bet she is already stressing that she is doing everything right - and to my mind that is not what living in a country should be about - you should be able to come here, set up a business and as long as that business is doing well, supporting you so you are not a burden, then you should be able to stay - not keep looking over your shoulder wondering and worrying about next year or the year after - totally wrong in my opinion.

Dont worry all, I will be gone in the next couple of weeks so you can forget about me!!

Love Anniexxx

[Kriz1]

No one is bashing her...just asking for links or for the people to come here if they wish to tell their stories first hand....
A lot of people would be...and have been in the past very unhappy to see their stories talked about on forums they do not belong too...

By all means post links...by all means invited people with stories to the forum...if you are close enough to know the ins and outs of someones visa...then you surely have the means to invite them to join us..if they don't wish to...then we should respect their privacy...

[Margrit]

I am quite sure that ... if I told you a great experience about someone's unexpected approval in London, you would not request a "link" ... (I don't even know what you mean by that ... a link to what?). You would just happily believe it. So, why is the standard of acceptance different if you don't like the story??? If the standard here is "good news is true, bad news is made up" ... then, I am an unfortunate messenger.

[Kriz1]

I am quite sure that ... if I told you a great experience about someone's unexpected approval in London, you would not request a "link" ... (I don't even know what you mean by that ... a link to what?). You would just happily believe it. So, why is the standard of acceptance different if you don't like the story??? If the standard here is "good news is true, bad news is made up" ... then, I am an unfortunate messenger.

A link..is a path to the story if in the paper...or the person if they are close enough to you to be invited to join... if you know all about their lives and their visa troubles or joys that sould not be much of a problem...this is after all what the forum is about...bringing people together..
I'm not here to believe anything good or bad...just to make sure when a story is told...we get the full facts...
We don't need a messenger...we need the people...how can we go forward if people don't wish to join with others to try to change things....

[Jax]

I agree with Annie.Margrit seems to be telling it as it is alright we do know all the facts on each case and i am sure we would all like to think we are doing all by the book and running a great business then you are told you have got it all wrong and what you are doing is not so great.They change like the wind one day giving out 5 years the next 2 years.I agree prehaps we do not always know all the facts but mine was all about profit and most business,s in the first 2 years do not show large amounts of profits.

[InnVic]

Why are you all so convinced that Margrit is telling it like it is? She has been a member of the fourm for less than a week, all posts have a "Chicken Little" ring to them. Why do you want to believe the sky is falling in...is it because if its "someone elses fault" then its easier to justify a denial?

I'm really fed up with this acceptance that your destiny is out of your hands and there is a vendetta by the US Embassy in London against E2 visa holders. I've honestly got better things to do...I've had enough this is my last post I'm leaving now..I'll miss many of you but the paranoia of others is destructive and I want no part of this.

[peter gold]

Why are you all so convinced that Margrit is telling it like it is? She has been a member of the fourm for less than a week, all posts have a "Chicken Little" ring to them. Why do you want to believe the sky is falling in...is it because if its "someone elses fault" then its easier to justify a denial?

I'm really fed up with this acceptance that your destiny is out of your hands and there is a vendetta by the US Embassy in London against E2 visa holders. I've honestly got better things to do...I've had enough this is my last post I'm leaving now..I'll miss many of you but the paranoia of others is destructive and I want no part of this.

Please dont leave you are well read balanced and give constructive advice .
Margrit is a new member and does not have the experience of this site that you have.
We all want to see you around until your renewal at least!!!

[Paul King]

InnVic,

The US E2 visa rules are filled with fuzzy terms like "substantial" and "marginal". Thus, they are open to interpretation by the consular officer that evaluates your case (in whatever Embassy).

In your situation your business is not portable, and cashflow would stop almost immediately if you had no US work authorization and stopped working.
A denial of your E-2 renewal would be a very serious situation for you, and that makes it a very emotional subject.

I think "vendetta" is too strong a word, but I certain see from first-hand experience that the US Embassy in London is not erring on the side of the visa applicant, and in some cases is assuming evidence is fabricated until proved otherwise. Have a good Plan-B is the best advice I can offer. That's not paranoia it's just good contingency planning.

[Jax]

I am not saying its someone elses fault but i have been through the renewal process useing an immigration attorney, employing staff and supporting our selfs only to be told you are marginal.I will also not be posting anymore as i see no point as all we are told is you must be doing something wrong and the London Embassy is not at fault

[peter gold]

Can I suggest that we encourage no one to post hearsay. If there is a story to be told we get first hand evidence from the "horses mouth" so we get all the facts and not a gloss on them.

[Kriz1]

When I was in a black hole I could not see how much damage I did to others by posting negative posts all the time.... I'm still not saying the garden is all rosey....and I don't think it ever will be...this is not an easy ride for anyone.. I can well understand Julie's feelings...its been a down right depressing read this last few days...no hope why bother...

[kirtida8]

Why are you all so convinced that Margrit is telling it like it is? She has been a member of the fourm for less than a week, all posts have a "Chicken Little" ring to them. Why do you want to believe the sky is falling in...is it because if its "someone elses fault" then its easier to justify a denial?

I'm really fed up with this acceptance that your destiny is out of your hands and there is a vendetta by the US Embassy in London against E2 visa holders. I've honestly got better things to do...I've had enough this is my last post I'm leaving now..I'll miss many of you but the paranoia of others is destructive and I want no part of this.

Yes Innvic, please reconsider - I know that we can all get a little paranoid at times, but thats just because we all have stresses other than just the visa to deal with, and sometimes it is easier to blame the system. A few renewals and everyone will be back to normal, its the way the cycle goes. I should know - I have more than my fair share to deal with and last week was more than ready to throw in the towel and get on the first plane out of here. It was only through the support of the members of this forum that I got through it to a degree ( not there by a long chalk yet, but working on it ). Plus, you could prove all the doubters wrong by getting your renewal with flying colours.:hug:

Jax also, please reconsider. You would both be missed.

[peter gold]

Innvic and Jax are valuable members of this forum. Will all regulars please make sure they are not driven away.
I am sorry Margrit but I think you should be looking at some aplogies here

[charliesmum]

I don't really understand where all this negativity and 'everyone is being denied' idea is coming from.

OK Paul who started the thread was denied and maybe felt that he wasn't given enough evidence why that was, but (and I haven't gone back and read it all) the only other disappointing outcome was Jax with a 2 year renewal instead of 5. Everything else has been hearsay or generalities.

Yes there are some people on here who have had disappointments in the past, but we're talking about how the Embassy is now and will be for the near future.

Please Innvic, don't leave. You are a very good contributor to this forum and I would hate to see you go. We are all rooting for you with your renewal and it will give us lots of useful information when you go to the Embassy. I'm sure, like me, you will ask questions about the future process for others and not just concentrate on your own renewal. You are the type of person we need to keep this forum going.

Zoe

[Kriz1]

Its hard being a newbie...coming into a forum...not knowing the history the regs have with each other...and maybe no knowing in full the background to their stories....

People find a forum like this and come here full of passion about their subject....and its easy to upset the applecart...

I hope no-one will leave because of this....we need everyones input good or bad...we are not going to all agree with each other...but we can find common ground and met half way...there is a fine line between giving people hope and telling it like it is...we don't want people to make mistakes...but we also don't want to step on their dreams or make them scared enough to give up or do something silly... maybe they'll not hit the same problems we have...

Its so easy to read into a post something which is not there....and we can disagree I hope without losing people...:)

[charliesmum]

Jax - I'm sorry I don't really know you as well as Innvic, but I hope you will stay as well on the forum.

I know you were disappointed with your renewal and, as I wrote to you, I was surprised at your outcome, but surely a 2 year was better than being denied. What type of business do you have and what reason did they give you for that time? I know you said 'marginality' but surely they must have given you more information than that.

I think Innvic is just trying to say that all the talk about the Embassy denying people for no reason, is not helping those who are going there soon or people considering whether they will renew at this time or not.

Zoe

[peter gold]

Kriz I am not as delicate as you
I have been trained by Bobby and Annie!!

[chris]

For my 5 cents worth, I'll just say that any member can read AND contribute as they see fit. No one is under any compulsion to read AND contribute on any thread. If any member is not comfortable with any thread, then they have the choice to post or not as they see fit. It's like moaning about sex and swearing on TV when you the on/off switch to turn it off. The alternative is censorship and I don't think any of us wants that.
I don't want to see any member leave, certainly not InnVic or Jax. EVERYONE has a contribultion to make on this Forum and we do a disservice to EVERY member if do not have balanced threads. That means the good and the bad. We should avoid posting hearsay, but if if cannot be avoided, then ensure it is highlighted as hearsay. We have all seen threads in recent months where the EV has been drip fed information and we end up giving half advice because we are only given half the story.
We are all adults (I hope so) and take it on the chin when things are not to our liking (and that cuts both ways).
Please lets not go down the road of creating a Disney version of EV. It needs to have its feet firmly planted in reality. Unfortunately reality is not always as nice as we would like.
Much of what constitutes the threads on EV stems from peoples 'experiences'. That is not to say that everything is fact. It is someones perception of the fact at that time. As has been said before, emotions creep in and perceptions can be distorted a little.
Can I please ask before we have no more bat and balls left, that the grown ups around here, take a breather. Some members have renewals or applications coming up in the next few months and it is only to be expected that they are 'nervy' to say the least. When they get their approval or renewal, then everything will be rosey again in the garden. So I think EVERYONE should be conscious of those members situations.
However as a parting shot, I would just flag up the fact that if the application/renewal process were as plain sailing as it seems to being conveyed in some cases, then why would people be nervy in the first instance? It's because humans are involved with all their little spins, etc.
My wife tells me 'do not stress over things that you have no control over'. It is so true. Worry about things you can control, but chill about the others.

[Kriz1]

Kriz I am not as delicate as you
I have been trained by Bobby and Annie!!

You should see me on forums where I'm not a mod........:rofl:

[Munish]

I was wandering whether or not to bother to reply on this thread, but since it's InnVIc, I will say is it would be a shame if you left. Personally I completely understand you wanting to leave since you have a renewal waiting, and this is really all a bit of a farce turning into a who can shout the loudest wins contest or who can be more sarcastic with some posts! Focus you energies on preparing yourself on your renewal rather than wasting your breath trying to prove a point to anyone who cannot be converted. I do strongly agree with a having a plan B though but I can tell you are more than smart enough to know that anyway. I would also get in contact with your Congress/Senate people so they are aware of your movements so if worse comes to worse, they might be able to come into play - if need be. If you get you renewal (as Charliesmum and Jax recently did) will that will be another proven example of knowing the facts, preparing your case and coming out with a successful visa.

I agree I have seen posters successfully renew and others not having been successful, but in all cases, reasons have been clearly posted. There are also a lot of cases of newspaper reports, friends etc etc which I am always suspicious about - I don't know everything about my family let alone my friends so I could never defend them on their say so unless I was privy to all the detailed facts, and I am yet to come across a person who knows everything about a business unless it is their own business (and even then sometimes not)!

I also agree with earlier statements, that there is always a reason why visas are rejected or accepted, whether legitimately or because the rules have not been properly interpreted. Regardless of whether the reason is logical or far-fetched, those reasons should be highlighted so awareness is created. It seems clear London is a more difficult bar to pass, but as long as you know where the bar is set there is no point in whining of whether it is right or wrong in the context of trying to obtain a visa. Ultimately, that is what the goal is. Either get with the programme or don't. Whining about it won't change things.

Use the FAM Manual. Where words such as "marginal" are used look for practical examples on the forums etc on what these mean, and surely you are mostly there.

Anyway InnVic, don't get distracted by anything other than your own logical reasoning.

[lxh11]

Why is a posters viewpoint more palatable based on their time posting here?! Do only the regulars opinions hold any water? - that makes no sense. I'm don't see why Margarit's postings have been negative - just her experiences & opinions.

[SHEILA 13]

We are not asking or expecting anyone to leave the Forum.
It is an Open Forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion,people can always choose to read the post or not.
This has been said many times before,sometimes it is advisable to just take "a step back" for a while.:)

[joe]

Why is a posters viewpoint more palatable based on their time posting here?! Do only the regulars opinions hold any water? - that makes no sense. I'm don't see why Margarit's postings have been negative - just her experiences & opinions.

if you were with a group of friends who you had known for a long time and someone new came along and told you a bunch of stuff that challenged your recent experiences wouldn't you question whether that person knew what he/she was talking about and what agenda that person was working to?

i have read many many posts by the likes of Julie, Zoe, Chris, Innvic, Susie, Kriz and have had the good fortune of meeting some of those people. i know something about their experiences and the experiences of people they know. if Julie tells me about a friend who has an E2 turned down, i know that she will have asked her friend the "difficult" questions to establish why, because there is ALWAYS a why.

when Margrit says that her IA has not had an E2 case agreed for 2 years that surprises me, because that has not been what has been happening recently.

anyone who knows me will know that i am not normally a sceptic, i much prefer to see the glass as half full but, in this case, i am sceptical as we are being given the info without the WHY.

Joe

[lxh11]

I understand where your coming from, but then you are also implying if your not in my click, then I won't believe you until you show me your colors to my satisfaction. That might put people off voicing their opinions, and then you stand to end up talking to yourselves instead of being open to someone who sees the situation differently because they are not "one" of you.

Liz

[SHEILA 13]

Liz,That is not right at all,like I have said before it is an Open Forum and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion.

[McSporran]

I dont think Joe is about being in the "click"...just the simple fact that trust is earned (and in a setting like this, can only come from time). I too will always look more sceptically on a strangers opinion than on that of someone I "know".
Its not to say everyone isnt entitled to a say...but if you are newer then I think it's human nature that your opinion and motives will be questioned more. (imho)

[lxh11]

Yes, I see that.

Liz

[DEE F]

Aw well here goes,I have pondered all day on whether to respond to this thread and having read everyones comments good bad or indifferent!!!!!It seems to me that if something is written that doesnt go along with the flow then it is questioned especially if it is a "newbie"doing the posting,this reminds me of when I joined another popular forum (not Florida Forum btw) and because I wasnt prepared to tell them everything they wanted to hear about me and mine including my shoe size they got extremely uppity and basically shunned me,for all they knew I could have had some good input for their forum but wasnt given the chance,now I also dont know who Margrit is,but in the same sense she doesnt know who any of us are either,but joined the forum in good faith to pass on her expertise,for goodness sake why woukd she come on and lie to us !!!!!!!!!! Just because we all dont read what we want to doesnt make her posts any less important than any of ours,this is an open forum and we should all be able to tell it like it is and give our opinions ,we have enough to contend with here just to keep body and soul together,we really arent giving this lady a fair crack of the whip at all,I personally think she is trying to help us,albeit a little bit out of the box,to be arguing and throwing our toys about is a little bit sad to say the least,we all know the London Embassy can be your best friend or your worst enemy,I know from personal experience with them that there was no viable reason why we werent given our visa there and then ,everything was approved in Texas our lawyers assured us it was a formality going to the embassy to get our visas in our passports,so off we went to be told by the eqivalent to Eva Braun,that she didnt have time to read through our petition then as it was too big,we then waited for six months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!by the time we got back over here we had 5 months left on our visa,so folks it does happen and will carry on happening,what we all have yto do is make sure everything to the best of our knowledge is true and what they are looking for,all I am saying is give Margrit a chance she is probably more knowledgeable than most of us,and will probably be an asset to the site given the chance,ok you can all kick off at me now I have said my bit.:(

Dee xx

[McSporran]

no point Dee...I think we're all going round in circles on here. I think this thread has run its course now.
Perhaps the orginal poster can start a new link for progress reports.

[Kriz1]

Dee why would anyone kick off on you...:)

[SHEILA 13]

Dee,No like I have said before it is an OPEN FORUM and EVERYONE is entitled to post.
It has been said by members before you do not have to read the thread if you do not want to..

[byjove]

nuff said me thinks!!!

[joe]

Hi everyone,

Firstly I don’t think anyone wants any member to leave or stop posting. Secondly, I think that we would welcome Margrit’s continued membership and input to the forum as new members are, indeed, its lifeblood. I reserve the right, as should you, to make my own decision about the accuracy of the information she and everybody else brings here.

My feeling is that, in fact, Margrit has been on the receiving end of sentiment that has been bubbling under the surface for some time.

It seems to me (from the thread about “what we love about the US”) that there are a lot of people here who actually like living in the US and accept (maybe accept is the wrong word) the visa difficulties that have landed on them as the cost of the life choices they have made. After all, the US is not our home country and it owes us nothing.

IN MY OPINION these people have found it difficult to join in on recent threads that have become almost violently anti-American (I know I have). That is why, when Innvic and Bobby disagreed with some of Margrit’s posts there seemed to be a whole host of people who suddenly felt the balance was being redressed and that the optimists amongst us finally had the opportunity to make our opinions known again.

As I said, this is just my opinion.

Joe

[Kriz1]

I like living in the USA...I'm also very fond of my place of birth. ...I did blame the USA for some of my problems a few years ago...I'm told its a stage you go through....its a bit like marriage......:angel:

[anniefromessex]

After this I am definitely done because I cannot see the point in having a forum where everybody makes their feelings known (and believe you me without this forum I honestly do not know where I would be at this moment in time - it has given me sooo much, friends more than anything and without them my life over the last year or so would have been so much harder) so now you have all kicked off over something so trivial, then what is the point.

We all have our viewpoint and that is how it should be - me and Bobby have kicked off before - most of what I said to him was tongue in cheek anyway - and if he thinks I am being catty then so be it. He feels he has the right to denigrate people when he feels the need so why shouldn't I have the right to have a go back at him - since living in this country I have somehow managed to get broad shoulders, before I would have cried - now could I care less, certainly not - it's like water off a ducks back. Nobody can know the whole story of a denial, renewal whatever - it isn't always easy to put it into words - you are the one going through it, you try to convey your feelings but it doesn't always come across in the right way. You all might have your thoughts, feelings on it - but you are not the one dealing with it at the end of the day.

With regards to Margrit, as I said before and Dee has reiterated, she is only telling it how she has found it to be -why the hell would we want links etc - half the time I go into links I don't understand them anyway. Why would she lie, what has she to gain - I have never known the people on this forum to be so afraid to hear other points of view - are you all so scared that you just want to block it out?!!! Personally I wouldn't blame her if she said "get on with it - I am only trying to give you a heads up and if you can't take it, then so be it".

Just why do you think Susie and her husband started this forum - was it because everything was hunky dory - no, they started it because they saw the injustice of what is happening to people. I am not trying to take Julie C's good fortune in getting back here in vain (I wish her all the luck in the world because this is obviously where she wants to be) but correct me if I'm wrong - if her case had gone to the Embassy in London do you think she would have been given 5 years?!!! You take Jax - she must be feeling as though she has been kicked in the guts right now because of what has happened to her at the Embassy in London and because of what people are saying on the forum. DebD was telling what happened to her friends - is she lying, are her friends lying - but just because you don't want to hear it do you denigrate it? DebbieM was on here last week telling her very sad story - IT IS WRONG that we should be here, paying our dues, sweating over renewals, approvals, denials - and all because we have had a dream!!!!

There are many people on here who have sailed through their applications - and good luck to them is what I say, but you cannot take away the people who feel they should have had that good fortune, in their eyes they deserved it as much as the next guy - after all we give up sooo much to come and live here so why should we think their case was not as good as ours, after all we all have to do what we have to do to get here and I cannot believe that nobody has "tweaked" something along the line.

All in all I feel that this country has a lot to answer for in the respect that even though we know what we are doing and we know what they want, we have to live on tenterhooks all the time (especially if you are on E-2), because when you are spending the amounts of money they want you to invest out here, then there should be a Visa that gives you the right to apply for a Green Card (which is the whole point of this forum to change the rules and regulations) so that you are not always looking over your shoulder and wondering just when they are going to turn you down and kick you out and then just where does that leave you. You are never entitled to anything from this country - you have to give, give, and give again - at least in England when you give you get something back - heck you get something back even when you do not give!!!!

Personally there are going to be loads of things I will miss, after all why would I have come out here in the first place if I hadn't liked so many things about this place, but we are going back and that is the right decision for us - it might not be utopia back there and I am sure there are things that are going to p... me off big time, but I know I will have peace of mind - which I have never had over here, and if I am honest I could never see myself over here in "old age" - just couldn't see myself working in Wal-Mart to pay my medical bills - but that is MY opinion and I don't want people thinking I am being anti - it has honestly been the way I have felt all along.

One final thing, I really hope InnVic and Jax do not stop posting on here - Innvic you know my feelings - and Jax I am sooo sorry that you feel the way you do - my heart goes out to you that you feel the way you do after reading the posts - I am sure they are not aimed directly at you per se.

I think Chris is the one with the common sense at the moment to tell it like it is (he said something along the lines I said last night - if you don't want to read somebody's post then you have the mouse, scroll down to the next post) it's not rocket science!!!! As for saying enough is enough on this post WHY!!! Are we not grown up enough to deal with the truth - if that's the case then it's a sad state of affairs.

[SHEILA 13]

Annie,THANKYOU for your opinion.

[charliesmum]

Everyone has their own opinion about living here and I'm sorry but if some are allowed to look at things as if they're doom and gloom all the time, then why aren't I allowed to give my opinion and be more upbeat about it.

We went through 18 months of worry about our renewal and yes, we were then given 5 years, but we didn't spend every day worrying and definitely not on tenderhooks - we would have gone mad if we had done. We just got on with life, ran our business - and yes we took on more staff and increased our customers - and waited till we did have the opportunity to sort our renewal out.

It is all very well saying that it is wrong that we have to live this way, but we are all living in a foreign country and have to follow their rules. It would be wonderful if we could change them and feel that we are given a better deal, but it is different over here and you have to accept that and get on with it. How many of us hated the fact that in Britain other nationalities have been able to change languages and other traditions in the schools and public life, yet want to do the same over here.

I know that I will probably get knocking for making these comments, but I really do feel that those of us that are trying to say that the Embassy are being ok at the moment are being put down.

And I'm sorry, Annie, but what is your comment about 'Tweaking' all about - maybe it's the tweakers that don't get the outcome they want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I apologise to all the people I'm going to upset with this post and have upset with my other posts today, but I've had enough too. There have been so many times just recently when I have started a post and then stopped because I've been worried about the reaction I will get. Frankly today I don't give a D**n anymore.

Thank you and Goodnight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zoe

[Kriz1]

Zoe if you could see how many posts I've started then deleted today..

[anniefromessex]

Zoe,

Just why are you getting on your high horse - you have the right to your opinion as we ALL do so why all of a sudden are your becoming defensive? Answer me a question - just say when you went to the Embassy in London and you had been turned down - did you have an action plan - what would you have done and how would you have felt?!! Sorry - just wanted to ask the question! Sometimes it helps people to know just what a persons reaction would be to a denial - after all it could happen for a number of reasons (marginal business etc) even though YOU might not think it marginal so did you have a plan if that happened - just wondering cos you and Steve went fairly recently and even though we all thought it would be a positive decision, did you have a plan of action? PLEASE NOTE: I am trying to be positive here for the forums sake and trying to get back a post that HELPS!!

Why are you worried about the reaction you would get - your view (and you put it across on Trevor Macdonald) is as important as anybody else's - just what is happening and why is everybody so uptight. We all have the right to our opinions - good and bad - we have all aired them in the past - whether people agree or disagree - that is what a forum is all about and you have been involved in this forum for a lot longer than many others and have helped Susie out in many many ways so I cannot understand just what has happened to make people so defensive and ready to throw in the towel!!!

With regard to my "tweaking" issue, Zoe come on - nobody is perfect - even Attornies - so I am only being honest!!

Love Anniexxx

[Bayfield]

I was denied a visa. I think first shock and then ****ed.

Kicked me into researching, it was sort of inevitable, so then I was not shocked, just ****ed that I had not done my research.

[Susie]

I find this hard to believe. I know that people get denied. But from reading between the lines of their stories it appears that many cases are turned down because the applicant has been given bad advice or they have not fulfilled the requirements (and I don't just mean employees). Its not always fair BUT I can't see how the Embassy would deny because they don't like the look of you or the officer is having a bad day. I may be proved wrong in November, but I have to hang on to a positive mind set.



Hi Innvic

Only just got to my computer today and starting reading all the posts. Please keep your chin up I am sure you have done everything per your original biz plan.

I agree that no one should be denied, just cos the IO is having a bad day. If this were ever proven all hell would let loose, by me for one. I will certainly contact all the reporters I know, for sure

I do know many on this site are very on edge at the moment adn I cannot say I blame anyone. No one should have to live their lives on a knife edge. I really believe if you are denied, they should surely give a full explaination as to the reason. Do they?

[Susie]

Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

H
Thanks Peter

It does seem they suspect Paul of just setting up a company to become self employed only



Paul,

Were you given a full list of reasons for denial or just one reason? Bit confused, was this a denial or request for further evidence?

[Susie]

Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

H
Thanks Peter

It does seem they suspect Paul of just setting up a company to become self employed only



Paul,

Were you given a full list of reasons for denial or just one reason? Bit confused, was this a denial or request for further evidence?

[Susie]

Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

H
Thanks Peter

It does seem they suspect Paul of just setting up a company to become self employed only



Paul,

Were you given a full list of reasons for denial or just one reason? Bit confused, was this a denial or request for further evidence?

[Susie]

Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

H
Thanks Peter

It does seem they suspect Paul of just setting up a company to become self employed only



Paul,

Were you given a full list of reasons for denial or just one reason? Bit confused, was this a denial or request for further evidence?

[Susie]

Paul
I have a full set of the US Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual in adobe form which I can email you as an adobe file if you pm your e mail address.
It may be you fell foul of 9 Fam 41.51.N11 "the marginality test" as I understand you are a sole trader working YOUR worldwide clients. Rules say.." the alien must not be investing in a marginal enterprise solely for the purpose of earning a living". If that is the case why give you the visa in the first place?
They are using the intro guidelines now as a yardstick...I quote
"as the E visa is becoming ever popular consular officers should remember that the basis of thsi classification lies in treaties which wree enetered into , at least in part to ENHANCE OR FACILITATE ECOMOMIC AND COMMERCIAL INTERACTION BETWEEN THE US AND THE TREATY COUNTRY. It is with this spirit in mind that cases under 101(a) 15(Ee) should be adjudicated"
and
....."in view of the judgmental nature of this classification, consular officers should seek to be FLEXIBLE, FAIR AND UNIFORM in adjudiacting E visa applications".
What is happening is the consular officers are being uniform in that they are almost refusing all E2 apps and renewals unless they show employment of staff, or they are prospectively benefitting the community. Like a guesthouse or hotel doing just bed and breakfast but scattering the clients about to other businesss owners benefitting the local tourist industry.
I wish you luck in your future.

H
Thanks Peter

It does seem they suspect Paul of just setting up a company to become self employed only



Paul,

Were you given a full list of reasons for denial or just one reason? Bit confused, was this a denial or request for further evidence?

[Susie]

Debbie
I am sure that the vc you use has your confidence but I have to say the Attronies I work with have not shared his current experience. In fact to the contrary.
In the past few weeks I am aware of four E2 renewals all getting five years.
I am aware of the refusals on here but do not have all the facts to comment
If as it seems you are compliant with the Rules, and how they are currently being applied you sould get a renewal. You have expanded the business, have two employees, a business plan, and have an income suporting your family.
Every account I have recently heard of the guy doing E2's is he is fair, but applies the rules.
Why be landlocked and put off the evil day of interview?
Sorry I would be looking to find a an Immigration Atty who is Board certified in Immigration Law, or get a copy of the Fam rules ( I can e mail an adobe copy to you) and do it for yourrself.
To everyone else Debbie is not scare mongering just reporting her vc's experience. I am reporting mine.



Yes, thanks for sharing Peter

The trouble with any attorney, they all (like us) have their own opiniions, some say do not go for interview , others say go ahead, no wonder we cannot help but feel something is a miss at the embassy.

Think it would be a good if anyone is denied a visa to post (if willing) all facts and figures

If we (as a group) feel they are wrongly denied, maybe we could contact their press office or get some publicity, but to help we will need people who are willing to work with us to help them, Just a thought

[Bobby]

Zoe,

Just why are you getting on your high horse - you have the right to your opinion as we ALL do so why all of a sudden are your becoming defensive? Answer me a question - just say when you went to the Embassy in London and you had been turned down - did you have an action plan - what would you have done and how would you have felt?!! Sorry - just wanted to ask the question! Sometimes it helps people to know just what a persons reaction would be to a denial - after all it could happen for a number of reasons (marginal business etc) even though YOU might not think it marginal so did you have a plan if that happened - just wondering cos you and Steve went fairly recently and even though we all thought it would be a positive decision, did you have a plan of action? PLEASE NOTE: I am trying to be positive here for the forums sake and trying to get back a post that HELPS!!

Why are you worried about the reaction you would get - your view (and you put it across on Trevor Macdonald) is as important as anybody else's - just what is happening and why is everybody so uptight. We all have the right to our opinions - good and bad - we have all aired them in the past - whether people agree or disagree - that is what a forum is all about and you have been involved in this forum for a lot longer than many others and have helped Susie out in many many ways so I cannot understand just what has happened to make people so defensive and ready to throw in the towel!!!

With regard to my "tweaking" issue, Zoe come on - nobody is perfect - even Attornies - so I am only being honest!!

Love Anniexxx

Thanks Annie,

But I thought that your previous post was going to be your last, by your own admission, and I was going to thank you for your contribution to the forum, .......albeit extremely disruptive and negative over the past month or so when things haven't gone in your favour. ...but you decided to post a little bit more.

Let me just answer for Steve and Zoe to save them the embarassment of having to answer your extremely rude and insensitive questioning:

"They prepared properly".

Got their ducks in a row, and probably didn't flout the laws of immigration, which meant that they didn't ever have to consider making a plan B.

Just my thought on it,

Bobby
___________________________________________
Just telling it like it is! ....as usual

[Susie]

Does anyone think that the rules have been changed in the past few years? Or is it that people are expecting a greater degree of flexibility and deviation from their original business plan? What I'm getting at is that if you've done everything that you said you'd do in your original plan (investment/sales target/profit/employees etc..) then can they really deny your renewal? It would seem criminal to give a visa on the basis of one set of criteria and then refuse to renew because they've "moved the goal posts".......a clear case of bait and switch!

Hi

I do not think the rules have changed, as such, more like they are looking more closely into applications, which could be a result of Visa Specialists who have been arrested, pleaded guilty and sentenced.

They could be looking at denying some applications to protect the applicant. I really cannot believe they just deny for denying's sake. If ever that came to light there would be hell to pay

[Susie]

Just a few of my thoughts:

1 I am perfectly aware that E visas are non-immigrant temporary visas. I am completely fine with it being temporary and indefinitely renewed on a 5 year basis assuming my business adheres to the rules and they are fairly interpreted.

2 Congress enacted this legislation specifically to encourage non-US investement and job creation in the US so why make the whole process so difficult to go through (especially in the US embassy in London). Why not just do away with this visa classification completely if the US don't really want it?

3 Nowhere in the rules does it specifically state that one must have US employees on W2 salary. If this is now a specific requirement the laws should be changed to reflect this. (This won't happen


because it's just a de facto requirement for the US embassy in London, not elsewhere in the world).

4 Nowhere in the rules does it specifically state what is considered marginal, or considerable income, or substantial investement. This is at the discretion of the consular officer and is obviously being inconsistently evaluated.

My visa was denied on the grounds that my company was not a real commercial enterprise - when it has been in operation for 5 years, and is a registered investment advisor in Vermont. The consular officer basically accused me of fabricating evidence, and assumed any document that was not federal (i.e. tax returns) could have been "just made up".

This "guilty until proven innocent" process appears to go againt the original intent of the legislation that created the E-2 visa classification in the first place, especially in the US embassy in London.

I'll let everyone know how things turn out for me and my family.

Hi Paul,

Please do keep us updated and hope all goes well for you

Would like to comment ref no 2.

If they did away with the E 2 visa this would exclude so many from experiencing living and working in the USA, so imho, better than not having it at all

Also at no 2, you say about the idea is to employ people, and as you only employ one person self employed, they assume you are a sole trader, (just imho) and maybe a valid reason why they denied you

Would like to ask, did you sned copies of your US tax returns with your application? If you did not, surely they have a tax section at the embassy so could easily verify your have a proper commercial trading company in the USA, these would be genuine returns they could download themselves, so not made up

[Susie]

Peter,

I am a trader, independent investment advisor, trading coach, author/publisher and hedge fund manager. I have trading clients all over the world and my business is run completely online apart from the financial advice to local Vermonters. I do have a leased office in Middlebury VT, but the rent is relatively cheap for the space I have, and the consular officer thought it was not "significant" ("Is that all" was his comment).

I do have an employee but she is on a commission-based contract and has not generated significant sales yet.

This business only recently became relatively successful (November last year) so I do not have a tax return to demonstrate this success yet - the consular officer said that he "didn't believe in big turnarounds" and would not take current year cashflow into account. I believe he thought we'd had long enough to make this work out and wanted to see tax returns with significant income from prior years.

Anyone who has W2 employees and tax returns with significant revenue on should be OK for renewal (even in UK) as long as they are consistent (i.e. don't have a bad year especially the one before renewal or else).

As for me, I am probably looking to relocate my business to a country/environment that actually values my contribution to the local economy and wants me to be there. Montreal is only 3 hours North of where I am now. Anyone else have any suggestions for good locations?

Sorry Paul

Only just got to this posting as making my way through them all

You have answered my question, you did not submit a tax return but could your accountant not have put something in writing for support of your application, or did he/she?

[Susie]

anniefromessex.........I'm disappointed that you feel so frustrated about E2 living and the U.S. Many of the points you raise though are part and parcel of what the E2 is and indeed has been since its inception.Anyone who has decided on the E2 route should most certainly be aware of the limitations and for sure there must be many who armed with this knowledge decide it is not the visa for them.Fortunately sites such as this give prospective interested individuals a broader sense of understanding than certainly was available to me some 15 years ago.I have no time for blame games but instead focus on the dozens of positives that living and working here provide myself and family.

As to "never having heard of anyone trusting an American to run their business".......well surprise,surprise, you have now.Regards your final thoughts on the ability of employees to run and manage businesses ,rest assured this happens every day of the week in millions of businesses around the globe.


Thanks for sharing your opinions Bob,

I know you have been in the USA many years and, with a tremendos amount of hard work are sucessfull and employ many.

I am sure you could look into getting your company to sponser you for I 140, then if approved I 485

Just so you know I called Josh, (Heather Wilson's office) for any update/news on Heathers legislation, but he has not returned my call yet

Please can you update us if and when you get any news or feed back

Thanks

[Susie]

Does anyone know the actual statistics of those coming here on an E2 that manage to turn it round into PR/GC?

Liz


Hi

Not that many that I have been made aware of, but that may be because many do not even know this is a possible option

[Susie]

[QUOTE=chris;30538] please spare me the 'you knew what you were getting into at the outset QUOTE]

unfortunately Chris, much of what is written on boards like this comes back to exactly this issue. as much as i would love my (and everyone else's) E2 to magically turn into a gc it ain't gonna happen.

that will not stop me exploring whatever options are open to me and supporting efforts to change the terms of the E2 but, when push comes to shove, if i have to leave i will and it will not be the FAULT of the immigration service as they are holding me to the conditions upon which i willingly entered.

it is THEIR game we are playing. they get to set the rules

Joe


I agree with you about #it is their game we are playing# and they set the rules, so we should respect and ply by them.

Just wished the rules were set out in stone and in plain English and in black and white on their website for us all to see, so all applicants can see whether or not they meet the criteria.

Truely do not like the words " substaintial investment " what does that means exactly?

Whats subtaintial to me, may well be peanuts to others

[Susie]

Ah! E2 needing premises! That was spinning when we put in our application in 03. But there maybe ways to overcome that! Which I dont want to post on the open forum for fears of "lurkers" if ya'll know what I mean!! nudge, nugde! hehehehe

What about people who thought ok! this is a part of my life I want to branch out, get me E2 stay a while then come back! What if you LIKE the life you have now and your growing a successful business? There should be a way to BUY your self into a GC say $50,000 per family member, put into the economy to boost taxes and such like and overall being seen to improve the USA!




Hi

Like the option to buy a green card for $50,000, shame and sadly do not think that would happen.


From memory, there are 4 in your family? so why not take this $50,000 per family member = $200,000 plus your investment so far, you could convert to the $500,000 investment and get a green card

[anniefromessex]

Bobby, I do not need you having a go - I never start the threads, I reply to them and in many cases the people are already fed up and unhappy with what is happening in their lives. You say I am being disruptive, that is your opinion and you are entitled and I will not bring myself down to have a slanging match with you - I have many more important things happening in my life.

With regard to my post to Zoe, I asked a question - Bayfield answered how he felt when he was turned down, I just wanted to know (as much as anyone can know until it happens to them and it seems to be happening more and more) if they had a back up plan - nothing sinister meant by it - just a question and one that I am sure Zoe could have answered for herself - and something that should be thought out "just in case" it did happen - you see we didn't have a back up plan so one more strike against us!!!I would have asked the same thing of Jax or anyone because I really do think in this day and age of denials that it is something that we should all think of.

Now that is it - so you can sleep easily in your bed tonight and wont have to worry about my negativity, rudeness or insensitivity.

[Susie]

The problem is real ... very real. No doom and gloom here.

You submit applications half as substantial and ten times as marginal to other consulates in Europe ... they are approved. No questions asked. No problem. It is just the same with renewals. Adjudication time anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months. The E-2 regulations are the same for everyone. So, what is going on in London?? If you know, it would be very kind of you, if you could help all of us understand ...
Thank you.



Hi Margrit

Thanks for sharing your opinions, which I respect although I do not necessary agree with all of them

There are tons of approvals and yes more denials lately but think it needs to be clarifed that people who are looking for information will search for sites such as ours.

The more I think about it, the more I am conviced that the embassy are just becoming more thorough in adjudicating applications to the letter of the law and in many cases protect some applicants which if approved would be a disaster

For the tons of people who get approved without any issues they probabley do not see the need to search for a site such as ours.

[Susie]

They system has obviously been abused and they are tightening up - on this forum we tend to hear mostly horror stories It has been mentioned before that most of the people on this forum are here because of problems or worries. If your visa renewal is going ahead all tickety boo then why would you need to google for help? This therefore gives us an inbalance of membership with most people confused, concerned or denied. I know I'll probably get shot down in flames but many who post here believe that E2 leads to Green card - so whats to say that they don't also believe a "marginal business" is passable, their "substantial investment" is going to qualify and their "non imigrant intent" is easy to fake. If you don't understand the rules then its hard to present your application in the most convincing format. Couldn't this result in problems and denial? I don't know, maybe Europe has not the same numbers of E2 applicants and therefore not the same need to tighten the reigns....but wasn't there a story on here about a german baker that was recently denied? Perhaps its not just London after all.


Yes your correct Innvic

Other embassies are also begining to look at all application much more closely and tightening up

[Susie]

There was abuse, no doubt ... Today, however, having a application approved in London for a Florida business is like winning the lottery. It is not supposed to be that way. It is complicated to understand why in Frankfurt an E-2 is approved for $110,000 in escrow, no employees, while in London the visa is denied for an already made $325,000 investment into a business that employs 6 people. However, it is OK to keep playing the lottery .... There will always be some winners. ;)

Hi

Please pass details of our site to these people, I would love to hear their story if they are willing to share

I must admit I do find it hard to believe that the person who made a $325,000 investment employing 6 people got refused. that just does not add up somewhere and feel there must be some other reason behind the denial

Can you tell us the exact reason?

[Susie]

I am not saying its someone elses fault but i have been through the renewal process useing an immigration attorney, employing staff and supporting our selfs only to be told you are marginal.I will also not be posting anymore as i see no point as all we are told is you must be doing something wrong and the London Embassy is not at fault

Hi Jax,

Would you like a chat?

You have done everything right, and no, you have done nothing worng at all. I just think that all embassies have been informed to enforce the rules and look more closely into the renewals

My immigration attorney, actually stated on the Trevor McDonald show that the embassy goes in fits and starts. For a period of time they give 5 year renewals then all of a sudden only give two year renewals, no rhyme or reason I am afraid, then without a by you or leave change back to 5 year renewals

[Susie]

I don't really understand where all this negativity and 'everyone is being denied' idea is coming from.

OK Paul who started the thread was denied and maybe felt that he wasn't given enough evidence why that was, but (and I haven't gone back and read it all) the only other disappointing outcome was Jax with a 2 year renewal instead of 5. Everything else has been hearsay or generalities.

Yes there are some people on here who have had disappointments in the past, but we're talking about how the Embassy is now and will be for the near future.

Please Innvic, don't leave. You are a very good contributor to this forum and I would hate to see you go. We are all rooting for you with your renewal and it will give us lots of useful information when you go to the Embassy. I'm sure, like me, you will ask questions about the future process for others and not just concentrate on your own renewal. You are the type of person we need to keep this forum going.

Zoe

Thank you Zoe, I agree and could not have said it any better myself

[Susie]

Hi Folkes


I have only managed to read up to page 7 so far tonight but will look at the other posts tomorrow

I would hate for anyone to feel as if they should leave due to some negativity in recent postings. I constantly get e-mails praising our members and this site for what we are all trying to achieve.

Think, if possible, we should try to separate in posts, whats an opinion, whats fact, whats law and be careful of discussing denials unless the person themselves has / or is prepared to give full and complete details of the case


Hearsay can be a danger to your health, or so it seems

[twen]

Innvic

I am a relatively new member, please don't go it has been you and Susie's post's that have kept it real for me and I really value your in-put...you would be a great loss to the site :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

Wendy

[SHEILA 13]

I dont think anyone should leave because there has been a "heated debate".
Everyone has something to offer be it on Immigration or just making a joke it is what makes the World go round.:peace:

[charliesmum]

In answer to Annie's post asking me if we had a back up plan when we went to the Embassy, the answer is no we didn't.

We went to the Embassy feeling pretty positive that we would be renewed, but if we had been denied, we would then have decided what we would do. That was why we went to the Embassy all together and we left the business in safe hands with our employees. We strongly felt there was no point in worrying about something till it happened - I think we made the point that we didn't let all the renewal stuff interfere with our day to day lives when we were on Trevor McDonald.

Yes we would have been devastated if we had been turned down, but we would have decided where else we could have gone, together as a family. We would have come back on VW and sorted out our affairs as best we could in the time we would have been allowed and then gone somewhere else. We would not have stayed here without valid documents, as I couldn't have lived with constantly worrying if someone would knock on my door at any minute.

Zoe

[Paul King]

I think this thread has oulived its original intent and usefullness. I suggest forum management lock it and I'll post a new one when I have any further information about my status (assuming anyone wants to know - it seems like members are more interested in arguing with each other at the moment :-( )

[DEE F]

Thanks Annie,

But I thought that your previous post was going to be your last, by your own admission, and I was going to thank you for your contribution to the forum, .......albeit extremely disruptive and negative over the past month or so when things haven't gone in your favour. ...but you decided to post a little bit more.

Let me just answer for Steve and Zoe to save them the embarassment of having to answer your extremely rude and insensitive questioning:

"They prepared properly".

Got their ducks in a row, and probably didn't flout the laws of immigration, which meant that they didn't ever have to consider making a plan B.

Just my thought on it,

Bobby
___________________________________________
Just telling it like it is! ....as usual I am quoting your posting to Annie Bobby because I cannot believe how the tables seem to have been turned on her,we have all read her story and others like it on this forum,we have laughed and we have cried along side her,but it seems to me that we are on a "Lets have a go at Annie week" and I for one am appalled I have seen how all this has affected Her and Ted as I am sure you have as well Bobby,maybe you havent Zoe I dont know,but to be honest with you all "There but for the grace of god go I " springs to mind.What They have had to go through for the last 18 months or so is unbeleivable and whether we thnk they are right or wrong in packing up and going back is irrelevant,but for all the sanctimonious and condescending posts I have read these last couple of days I am both shocked and dismayed,Annie has been a fantastic contributer to this forum and as my firend I feel I have to speak upfor her,can you not realise that one of the ways she has to vent out her anger is through the forum,I like to think as adults we could all be there for each other in our times of need and distress ,but it seems I am wrong as usual,this and other forums are for people to give thier opinions that is what forums are made for,we would all be living in cloud cuckoo land if we thought that the renewal process was a piece of cake,because it isnt,and when someone gets a successful one we all cheer them on,but if someone is on a downer and chooses to blame the system then oh my god we are all up in arms about it,have any of you stopped to think for one minute how your cutting remarks have affected Annie and her family personally,I think not,I thought we were all adults on here but apparently we arent at least not with some of our postings,the one thing I thought we would never do is kick someone when they are down,but it seems like I am wrong again,just remember what comes aroud goes around,and I for one will miss Annie very very much.


Dee

[SHEILA 13]

Paul,We are interested in your news and please post it when you can.
Yes I agree it has gone off track in places,we will discuss it later today when there are more people available to talk with.
Thankyou

[OberonSH]

I think everyone's gone a bit mad - must be all those poolside cocktails and lack of decent tea getting to you all. The whole debate seems to be over the appropriate reaction if you get a denial, as seen on this thread and another one. Basically it's all gone a bit far. No-one is being told they're to blame for their denials or problems, and no-one is saying the embassy are full of people who only work there cos they were deemed too nasty for HM Customs & Excise.

I think we can all agree that we need much more hard evidence of the whys and wherefores of the individual cases so we can see what the embassy are doing - as we all know the FAM guidelines (henceforth referred to as The Bible) are woefully inadequate as hard checklists. You wouldn't g into an eam without reading the questions, so it wuld be daft not to apply for a visa not knowing what they're looking for.

I think what we need is some definative evidence of what is being allowed, and what denied within these 'broad enough for a 6 wheeler' guideline. I know when we finally get in the position to start, we'll be putting up absolutely every scrap of info we're giving to the embassy, so when (hopefull) we get approved we can show people what hard evidence got passed. Same goes for renewal. If we built up some sort of 'database' of what got through and what didn't, we can all see where the tricky bits lie.

But I also think we all need to calm down and stop shouting at each other - we're all friend. We've all got different experiences - and perhaps some members are being a bit vocal about their unhappiness, but that's not a problem - if you can't vent here about how you feel, where can you do it? The same way we didn;t all tell Julie to put a sock in it when she got her long awaite return trip - we need the ups and downs to present a balanced view of what you could be letting yourself in for. Yes, your process might be a breeze a la Traci, or it might be the worst thing since the Spice Girls opened their traps like Annies.

[OberonSH]

I think everyone's gone a bit mad - must be all those poolside cocktails and lack of decent tea getting to you all. The whole debate seems to be over the appropriate reaction if you get a denial, as seen on this thread and another one. Basically it's all gone a bit far. No-one is being told they're to blame for their denials or problems, and no-one is saying the embassy are full of people who only work there cos they were deemed too nasty for HM Customs & Excise.

I think we can all agree that we need much more hard evidence of the whys and wherefores of the individual cases so we can see what the embassy are doing - as we all know the FAM guidelines (henceforth referred to as The Bible) are woefully inadequate as hard checklists. You wouldn't g into an eam without reading the questions, so it wuld be daft not to apply for a visa not knowing what they're looking for.

I think what we need is some definative evidence of what is being allowed, and what denied within these 'broad enough for a 6 wheeler' guideline. I know when we finally get in the position to start, we'll be putting up absolutely every scrap of info we're giving to the embassy, so when (hopefull) we get approved we can show people what hard evidence got passed. Same goes for renewal. If we built up some sort of 'database' of what got through and what didn't, we can all see where the tricky bits lie.

But I also think we all need to calm down and stop shouting at each other - we're all friend. We've all got different experiences - and perhaps some members are being a bit vocal about their unhappiness, but that's not a problem - if you can't vent here about how you feel, where can you do it? The same way we didn;t all tell Julie to put a sock in it when she got her long awaite return trip - we need the ups and downs to present a balanced view of what you could be letting yourself in for. Yes, your process might be a breeze a la Traci, or it might be the worst thing since the Spice Girls opened their traps like Annies.

[chris]

Yes I think Chill Out is a very apt phrase at the moment. I cannot believe that some grown ups on this site are speaking like a bunch of schoolkids in the playground with constant sniping at one another. All this does is lower the value of this site as a means of getting BALANCED information.
If I'd just come back from London with a 5 year E2 renewal/approval under my arm I would be tickedy boo happy and the Emabssy person would be on my Xmas card list. If I was trying my best to get back into the US on VWP after being denied my renewal by the same person at the same Embassy, then I'd be pretty P****D off. Both sentiments would come out in my postings and general view of the immigration process. That is all we seem to be seeing here, that we have one camp of +v's and one camp of -ve's. So what's wrong with that? Neither side is wrong in their comments and beliefs because that's the cards they have been dealt. None of us on this site are masochists, so I don't believe a denial is ever a cause for celebration, nor an approval/renewal time to have a wake.
Whether its an approval/renewal or denial there is a reason for that decision by the Embassy. It may the decision we wanted or didn't want, but that was THEIR decision. All we can do for other viewers of this site is feed through those experiences relative to those decsions to help people be successful. Isn't that what this site is about success???? To achieve success we have to understand failure as well.
Now everyone, please chill out, take a calmer or whatever look ahead to Labor Day weekend and stop the infighting. WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY.

[peter gold]

Agreed lets bury this now and move on.

[DEE F]

Yes I think Chill Out is a very apt phrase at the moment. I cannot believe that some grown ups on this site are speaking like a bunch of schoolkids in the playground with constant sniping at one another. All this does is lower the value of this site as a means of getting BALANCED information.
If I'd just come back from London with a 5 year E2 renewal/approval under my arm I would be tickedy boo happy and the Emabssy person would be on my Xmas card list. If I was trying my best to get back into the US on VWP after being denied my renewal by the same person at the same Embassy, then I'd be pretty P****D off. Both sentiments would come out in my postings and general view of the immigration process. That is all we seem to be seeing here, that we have one camp of +v's and one camp of -ve's. So what's wrong with that? Neither side is wrong in their comments and beliefs because that's the cards they have been dealt. None of us on this site are masochists, so I don't believe a denial is ever a cause for celebration, nor an approval/renewal time to have a wake.
Whether its an approval/renewal or denial there is a reason for that decision by the Embassy. It may the decision we wanted or didn't want, but that was THEIR decision. All we can do for other viewers of this site is feed through those experiences relative to those decsions to help people be successful. Isn't that what this site is about success???? To achieve success we have to understand failure as well.
Now everyone, please chill out, take a calmer or whatever look ahead to Labor Day weekend and stop the infighting. WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY.Hi Chris,one again the voice of reason,but I am not the one throwing my toys around,this was a balanced thread about Paul being denied his renewal,and then the fun started that there are always reasons for denial,and I agree with that, albeit bloody silly ones,the point I was trying to make was not to kick someone when they are down,which is exactly how this thread has ended,and that is very very wrong,yes we are all on the same side,and we all have our opinions on the workings of the immigration system,and in my opinion for what its worth,that is what Annie has been trying to do,she was giving her opinion,we get told everyday to make sure we use a certified lawyer to do our stuff for us,well what do you think Ted Annie and Daniel did,they used certified lawyer and look where it got them,up s**t creek without a paddle,no wonder the woman is upset and angry ,that is what I meant in my post by"there but for the grace of god go I" (maybe thats just a northern saying) Annie and others like her truly believe they have had a raw deal,perhaps not through the fault of the immigration system per se,but by the very bad advice given to them by the so called professionals,and people should be made aware that it isnt a journey to be taken lightly and things can and most certainly do go wrong,but when the things do go wrong lets be there for them,not pull them to pieces on an open forum,that my friend is bang out of order,now I am having a cup of coffee and a fag.


Dee x

[Bobby]

Of course nobody wants to get into a slanging match especially when parties are fraught with anger over their own situation, but nobody is trying to kick anyone while they are down.
If someone has a valid point to make, then why can't they make it?

Of course I sympathise with Ted & Annie's personal situation, they're nice people. Their impending return to the UK is what they chose to do, though. They have green cards in hand, but couldn't secure permanency for their adult son and his family. I'm not so sure that the system has failed them.
I'm not so sure that everyone reading is so clear on the background to why the family were refused, in the first place.

I don't want a heated debate about it either, by dragging up old ground, but if we're to listen to 50-100 posts about how the system has wronged them and how we don't know what it feels like to be in that position until it happens to us, ...then surely it's ok to have this one post that says, "that's not quite right now is it, Annie?"

There's nothing personal here, but from the encouragement in my PM box and E-mail, I guess I'm the only one bold enough to redress the balance, and just say what everyone else is thinking.

Again, there's nothing personal, if anything, it HELPS everyone to understand WHY these things happen to families. It's not because of the "big bad USA" not wanting any more British. It's because of the paths we've chosen.

If we choose the wrong path, then how can we really blame anyone else, ....myself included, in my applications??

Bobby
__________________________________________________ __
Just telling it like it is! ....as usual.

[lxh11]

I know I'm going to regret this, but is Annies story posted somewhere to read?:o

Liz

[DEE F]

Hahhahahahahah nice one Liz yes it is ,makes very interesting reading as well.


Dee xxx

[DEE F]

I think this thread has oulived its original intent and usefullness. I suggest forum management lock it and I'll post a new one when I have any further information about my status (assuming anyone wants to know - it seems like members are more interested in arguing with each other at the moment :-( )Hi Paul,why should this thread be locked???We are all adult enough on here to take a bit of critism,constructive or otherwise,lets not take our ball back,it is a good thread,and obviously not ebveryone is going to see eye to eye,it doesnt mean it should be locked.:confused:

Dee xxx

[kirtida8]

I know I'm going to regret this, but is Annies story posted somewhere to read?:o

Liz

Liz, if you want to find the story, go to the members list and look up Annie, you can then click on her name to read all her posts. This would apply to anyone's post if you wanted to learn a little bit more about them. Hope it helps.

[lxh11]

Thanks Kay :)

Liz

[joe]

my last words on the subject............

we are all economic migrants. none of us were forced to come here, we chose to make the move for our own personal motives. we are all adults making our own assessments of the pros and cons. that makes YOU responsible for your own actions.

now, imagine you were a brit, living in the uk who came across an internet forum run by polish people, set up by poles living in the uk to help other poles understand the immigration process for moving to the uk (yes, i know it is different from "our" process to come here but just bear with me).

if you read threads about the raw deal that some poles had experienced with the immigration process you might well react by saying "wow, i had no idea it was so tough for people to move here to better their lives". you may even go on to express sympathy next time you met a polish person running their own business and, possibly, congratulate them for making the effort to create a better situation for themself and their family.

imagine that you read on and discovered that people were saying that all british people were liars, cheats and scammers and that if you left your business in their charge they would steal it from under you. how would you feel if you read post after post by other poles basically agreeing with that sentiment?

would you still feel the same way towards polish people?

that is basically what has happened here. some people here have had a raw deal, of that there is no doubt. that does not mean that everybody has and it does not mean that the system is corrupt, merely it is flawed (as is everything that has an element of human interpretation in it). i don't think that anyone here has any problem with any member talking about their disappointments but when it goes further into all out criticism of all things american i feel that it goes too far.

Joe

[DEE F]

And your point is Joe ??????????????????????????????????????

Dee

[lxh11]

Nicely said Joe, I posted similar sentiments a few weeks ago, but it didn't go down well!:)

Liz

[SHEILA 13]

Joe,who can you trust ???????

[DEE F]

I am sorry Joe and Liz,I dont know you guys at all,although I suspect you are very nice people,but I do Know Annie and all the posts are seemingly having a go at her for daring to voice her opinions ,nobody has said that all things American are bad,least of all Annie,what Annie is doing is stating on a public forum how she feels,and has also been answering peoples posts,she has not been ripping people apart,like some on here,so come on where are the rest of Annies friends I thought she had loads on here???And the only reason your "similar " posting didnt go down well Liz was because a lot of people didnt agree with you,but if we all agreed with everyone else all the time,what would be the point of a forum to give opinions??And in my opinion once again for what its worth,when someone is down we try and pick them up,not kick them a little bit harder,and beleive me if it was anyone else whom I thought was getting a raw deal,I would be in their corner as well,that is the type of person I am,isnt that what friends are for?????????????

Dee

[Kriz1]

I think this thread has oulived its original intent and usefullness. I suggest forum management lock it and I'll post a new one when I have any further information about my status (assuming anyone wants to know - it seems like members are more interested in arguing with each other at the moment :-( )


I think starting a new thread who be a first class idea...

[peter gold]

This is all being blown out of proportion.
I think we all have full sympathy with Annie and anyone who has had their lives turned around by adverse immigration decisions.
What people want to see is some more positiveness on the forum. In the past few months London has improved, they are faster, more approvals and some 5 years renewals.
We need to hear the refusals but we need all the facts. I suggested yesterday we do not post other peoples stories. They post if willing and we try and stop SCAREMONGERING.

[Kriz1]

Peter is right...this is about getting info from the horses mouth..I could sit here and say I know 20 people who have got approvals..and 50 that did not....but thats just hearsey...
Nothing wrong with saying you have heard that people have been approved or not...but if you go on to give more info about their business etc...then really you should know the people well enough to ask them to come here to post...if they don't want too...then just maybe they don't want their stories told...we should respect that....if a link to their story is online because its in the news...then it becomes public...

[Susie]

Yes agree Peter

Lets try and stick to what is fact and not hearsay. People have enough worries on a day to day basis never mind worrying about what may or may not be true

I am still trying to catch up with this thread but in the meantime would ask if we could all try to repect anyone's opinion even if we do not agree. I have said many times the written word is not always mean't to come across in the way it does as we have many people from different countries who may not understand our SOH.

We have received requests to shut this thread and move on. If that happens we would be accused of censorship and no one wants that. Discussions are what we are about , personal attacks and frightening people are not

[Carol]

my last words on the subject............

we are all economic migrants. none of us were forced to come here, we chose to make the move for our own personal motives. we are all adults making our own assessments of the pros and cons. that makes YOU responsible for your own actions.

now, imagine you were a brit, living in the uk who came across an internet forum run by polish people, set up by poles living in the uk to help other poles understand the immigration process for moving to the uk (yes, i know it is different from "our" process to come here but just bear with me).

if you read threads about the raw deal that some poles had experienced with the immigration process you might well react by saying "wow, i had no idea it was so tough for people to move here to better their lives". you may even go on to express sympathy next time you met a polish person running their own business and, possibly, congratulate them for making the effort to create a better situation for themself and their family.

imagine that you read on and discovered that people were saying that all british people were liars, cheats and scammers and that if you left your business in their charge they would steal it from under you. how would you feel if you read post after post by other poles basically agreeing with that sentiment?

would you still feel the same way towards polish people?

that is basically what has happened here. some people here have had a raw deal, of that there is no doubt. that does not mean that everybody has and it does not mean that the system is corrupt, merely it is flawed (as is everything that has an element of human interpretation in it). i don't think that anyone here has any problem with any member talking about their disappointments but when it goes further into all out criticism of all things american i feel that it goes too far.

Joe

I quite agree with this comment, I have known crooks since I arrived here and been ripped off, but I have lots of friends here (great freinds), who are all looking out for me they have all offered to go to congress with me, they even got a petition going !!! and let me ask did you not meet any crooks in the UK ? I know I did !

[joe]

Carol,

i thought that i had said my last on this but i had to respond to your post and say that, with ALL that you have been through, i would not have blamed you if you wanted to shoot me down in flames. thank you.


now, these ARE my final words.......

it's like this........you have this girlfriend/boyfriend and they mean everything to you. then he/she decides they don't want you any more. you have 2 choices....you can go around town bad-mouthing them and that just makes you look bad.....OR.......you can take it with good grace and that has the effect of making THEM look bad for their lousy decision.

stay lucky

Joe

[McSporran]

As always...well put Joe.

[jay]

I think anybody that has been through crap from poe or the embassy has every right to be bitter and angry, thats the whole idea of these forums so we can hear the good and bad. untill you have been on the recieving end of it you dont know what its like, it's not all plain sailing for most,and if it is for some then arnt you the lucky ones.its far from being the florida dream for some infact its been a ruddy nightmare, so lets hear the good and bad then we know what to expect.
jayne

[DEE F]

it's like this........you have this girlfriend/boyfriend and they mean everything to you. then he/she decides they don't want you any more. you have 2 choices....you can go around town bad-mouthing them and that just makes you look bad.....OR.......you can take it with good grace and that has the effect of making THEM look bad for their lousy decision.{Quote from Joe}



Orrrrrrrrrrr you can tell it like it is,so that the next girlfriend/boyfriend doesnt end up in the same scenario as you did.Because Joe there are always two sides to a story,and when you feel you have been wronged and a bad decision has been made you do want to tell people about it,there is no one on here that is whiter than white each and everyone of us as at some time had a dig about the immigration /poe/embassy/usa/and America in general,so why is it now so wrong because one of our members has voiced her opinion,people who live in glass houses and all that:(

Dee

[Carol]

it's like this........you have this girlfriend/boyfriend and they mean everything to you. then he/she decides they don't want you any more. you have 2 choices....you can go around town bad-mouthing them and that just makes you look bad.....OR.......you can take it with good grace and that has the effect of making THEM look bad for their lousy decision.{Quote from Joe}



Orrrrrrrrrrr you can tell it like it is,so that the next girlfriend/boyfriend doesnt end up in the same scenario as you did.Because Joe there are always two sides to a story,and when you feel you have been wronged and a bad decision has been made you do want to tell people about it,there is no one on here that is whiter than white each and everyone of us as at some time had a dig about the immigration /poe/embassy/usa/and America in general,so why is it now so wrong because one of our members has voiced her opinion,people who live in glass houses and all that:(

Dee

Sorry to say this Dee but bitterness never wins the battle, it only eats away at you.
Carol xx

[DEE F]

Sorry to say this Dee but bitterness never wins the battle, it only eats away at you.
Carol xx
Hi Carol,sorry dont really understand your post here ,I am not bitter at all ,I was just very upset that one of the forum members was turned on because she was voicing her opinion,or have I totaly read this wrong:confused:

Dee x

[TeaPot]

Hello Everyone,

Have read all the posts on this thread today and got myself thoroughly confused in the process. Not that it is hard to get old TeaPot confused - I seem to exist in a perpetual muddle most of the time...

Anyhoo, I would like to say that I feel tremendous empathy for Annie and Ted and the situation they are in with their family not being able to stay here with them. I fought tooth and nail to get our eldest son over here, it worked out well in the end for our family, but so easily might not have. It leaves you exhausted and drained though, even with a positive outcome, so really it is the good Lord only that knows how Annie and Ted really feel.......but at least she can rant and rave on this forum and let off steam safely.

Others can and do rant and rave too, and I will also rant and rave when my time comes. It does you good to have a moan. Maybe we should have a section for ranting and raving only, then those with delicate ears need not listen. :D

Apologies also to Paul, for continuing the hijacking of your thread

Now, if I smoked I would now have a fag like Dee, but I don't, so I'll put the kettle on and have a Hob-Knob instead.

Oh bu**er, forget the tea and biccies - it's been a sod of a day - I shall have a glass or two of Merlot instead....

Kind Regards, x

[byjove]

Mr Byjove always has such a giggle at your postings tp and get mr tp to tottle into pubix on the way home for ya hob-nobs and tea!

Sod that! HUGE, HUGE bottle of merlot always goes down better me thinks!

[SHEILA 13]

I always feel better after a good cup of Yorkshire Tea :)

[DEE F]

Hi Teapot and thank you for your input,I to totaly understand where she is coming from and I am glad you posted,now have a nice big glass of merlot and cheers,me I am gonna have another fag,its been a trying day,you take care now:hug:


Love Dee xxxxxxxxxxx

[lorraine]

Hi Joe just read your reply to Carol, I had to put something on here as Carol is my best friend and if you read her story has been through total crap, through no fault of her own.

She has never been bitter twds american people and at the moment we have so many petitions all done by americans in with Mel Martinez and many others.

Maybe I am reading your thread wrong, but it seems like you are saying oh well thats the way it is and get on with it.

I only hope to god this never happens to you, I have watched a fantastic hard working family go to hell and back, I live with them every day the buracratic crap they have to go through.

But hey guess what Carol still loves all her american friends and the country, she is just angry at all the bull#### she has to go through to prove she did everything the correct way............... believe you me she has done everything straight and I know of many who havnt and are still here and carrying on. So just had to tell you as it is , and I prey you are never in this position yourself... but maybe you are strong and if so, said boyfriend or girlfriend ,tells you it is over you can just get over it and move on...Sorry for the rant but you know!!!!!!!!!!!!! Carol loves America and all her american friends

[lorraine]

Hi Joe thanks for the pms hopefully we have clarified everything........... Carol is knackered and gone to try to sleep as if!!!!!!! kind regards Lorraine

[lorraine]

By the way Dee I have nearly converted back to smoking OH NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not really , thanks for all the e mails very funny he he

[SHEILA 13]

Dee,I agree it was a very trying day yesterday.
I do feel for Annie and her family and she knows how I feel on the matter.
I am so pleased I had the chance to meet Annie and for us to become Friends.:hug:
Sheila

[ettena]

Hi, I haven't been on the forum for a while. I was greatly encouraged in previous postings by Annies comments but put off from writing any further comments due to the nature of the 'I told you so's', never get a B2 and change to E2. Nevertheless that is what we did and nevertheless we had our E2 Denied recently for misrepresentation when we got our B Visa. So yes I can concur with everyone now don't change a B to E visa! Anyway, I thought it was bad enough flying all the way to London with 20lbs worth of paper just in case we were asked, just to be told NO. That was the bad bit, the bad bit was being told we can't go back even to close down the business and pack up. So the house, Dog and Business are over there running themselves! whilst we are stuck here still trying to believe it isn't a curse! so if anyone has any interesting comments please not hindsight ones, we would be most grateful. One option and I am told is the only option is to appeal to the Dept of State and this will take 6 months. Can you believe this!

[SHEILA 13]

Oh dear I am so sorry for you.
Can you come back in on a VWP to try and sort something out? at least you will be this side.
Take Care
Sheila

[Paul King]

ettena,

Who has told you that you can't return on a visa waiver? There is nothing in the VWP rules that says you are ineligible just for being denied a visa - it is at the discretion of the officer at the point of entry (just like when you have a visa). My guess would be that you would be allowed entry for 90 days to at least wind up your business and put your affairs in order.

It is my understanding that appeals are only worthwhile if a point of immigration law has been broken by the consular officer evaluating your case - you can't appeal due to new evidence, or becauase of a decision by the consular officer that is not "fair" since the burden of proof is on the applicant and so much discretion is allowed on the part of the officer.

If you don't want to sit on a plane back to US wondering if you'll be let in, then my only suggestion would be to start a UK company immediately. Make it the parent-company of your US company, work for 12 months in the UK and then do an L1 transfer back to the US (and adjust status to permanent resident once you arrive). Hopefully you can remotely manage your business from the UK (but I'm not sure about the dog though, sorry).

Hindsight is always 20:20 when you make a mistake (especially in the US immigration world) so you're right to forget about "told you so's" and concentrate on what's the best thing to do right now considering your situation.

As an aside, how long were you in the US on a B1 before you adjusted to E2 status? If it was less than 60 days then that is generally considered misrepresentation, if it was after 60 days and you didn't do anything that showed you intended to change status at the time you applied for the B1 then you have been harshly treated (which I know is no consolation, but at least you know you haven't really done anything "wrong"). If you say you intend to adjust status after you arrive (which is what you're supposed to do)then the US embassy in London will deny the B1 so you wouldn't have been able to come to the US in the first place. Catch 22.

Paul

[charliesmum]

I was also under the impression that you could come back on Visa Waiver.

Zoe

[chris]

I am sorry to learn of Ettena's dilemma. The conversion issue apart, it is the aftereffects of the denial which highlight the fear and worry that people have to endure with a renewal. I can't comment on the accuracy of re-entering the US. Like most things, everyone has a spin or knows someone, yah'd yah. For my sins, people have said that if your passport has the stamp Visa denied, you show it on the VWP and fall on the mercy of the POE. I have no idea if that is right or wrong.
But once again that limbo you are now in just flags up what a crap shoot it all is at the London Casino aka the Embassy.

[peter gold]

When you a fill in the visa waiver forms given to you on the plane you MUST declare you were refused a visa ( have paperwork with you), and then you should get 90 days to tidy your affairs. If you fail to do that they will detain you at POE and turn you round deported and ban you from reentry for I think it is 10 years.
Otherwise YOUR POSTING IS VERY IMPORTANT AND SHOULD BE READ BY ALL WOULD BE E2ers.
In general do not convert from B to E visas unless you are e.g visiting for a year to ones US relatives and had no intent to emigrate when you arrived. If you come over on a B visa and intend to find a business and then stay and try and convert to an E visa YOU WILL BE REFUSED

[chris]

Continuing Ettena's scenario, here's a horrendous what if?
Under the Embassy interview process children under the age of 14 (I believe its 14) are not required to attend the Embassy for the interview. So what if you decided to not take your kids out of US school, leave them with minders and make the pond trip just H&W and the kids passports.
Where does that put things? Being refused entry, surely would be a clear human rights violation of the highest order.

[OberonSH]

I can't see how anyone could go B - E without arousing suspicion

'Honest, we just bought the business on a whim, happened to see it, and had the cash so thought why not'.

How would you convince an official that you came over on holiday, and left the proud owner of a sandwich francise?

[kirtida8]

Well pointed out Chris. Also, what about their poor dog???:(

[peter gold]

Kids are no longer in status as they get derviative status from the visa However EVERY child of school age living in US has a right to schooling (US superiors court decision). They have a right to education not to reside.
The example of B to E transfer which is extant (and I know the family) is an over 21 son visiting green card holder parents for a year who decides he wants to stay, and so buys a business to run whist parents wait to become citizens and petition for his green card

[Paul King]

Peter said, "In general do not convert from B to E visas unless you are e.g visiting for a year to ones US relatives and had no intent to emigrate when you arrived. If you come over on a B visa and intend to find a business and then stay and try and convert to an E visa YOU WILL BE REFUSED"

I would add "... if you are British and plan to use the US embassy in London to get your full E-2 at some point". Other US embassies are much more "generous" with their treatment of applicants (even 3rd-party ones) with regard to change of status/intent/etc.

[lxh11]

".. if you decided to not take your kids out of US school, leave them with minders and make the pond trip just H&W and the kids passports.
Where does that put things? Being refused entry, surely would be a clear human rights violation of the highest order"

Why would people do that knowing the risks?


Liz

[DebbieM]

I'm feel really sorry for ettena - this has to be everyones worst nightmare. however, I don't think it is as cut and dried as just a B2/E2 change of status reading previous posts.

http://www.expatsvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?p=9349#post9349

[peter gold]

I agree with Pauls addition and comment.
Liz Anyone with a non immigrant visa refused a renewal will always get 90 days on the visa waiver to sort out their affars which will inlcude gathering up kids so it will not be a denial of human rights.

[charliesmum]

Having read the previous posts by this lady that have been highlighted here, I think it shows what a nightmare changing from B2 to E2 status can be.

I know most people don't go into this situation voluntarily, and I know that over the last couple of years the situation at the Embassy has been a lot more difficult, with applications taking much longer, but things are improving there now and I really think folks should think twice now about coming over here this way.

I think the situation was a massive circle, with there being delays because of more people getting visas maybe not in the correct - please don't moan at me for that comment - way and then more people going along the B2/E2 route. I think the Embassy will deny you if they see that you have tried to 'work' the system to get over here quicker or whatever, because there still will be the others waiting to come over in the normal E2 way.

I do realise that those who have used this way will feel justified in doing things the way they did, but I also feel it has added to the waiting times and made the Embassy more suspicious of other applications.

Sorry to have said this, but I'm afraid it's how I feel.

Having said all this, I feel very sorry for Ettena and her family and whoever advised them to go down this route should be ashamed of themselves.

Zoe

[Sharon]

quote


Having said all this, I feel very sorry for Ettena and her family and whoever advised them to go down this route should be ashamed of themselves.


Yes too true, we were advised to do this but thankfully choose not too. A friend of mine was looking to buy a business and the agent said the seller would not wait for them to get the visa so they lost the business

[OberonSH]

Better to have a lost a potential business than to go about it the 'less than ideal' way and put off the loss for 2 years.

[tracifrost]

When you a fill in the visa waiver forms given to you on the plane you MUST declare you were refused a visa ( have paperwork with you), and then you should get 90 days to tidy your affairs. If you fail to do that they will detain you at POE and turn you round deported and ban you from reentry for I think it is 10 years.
Otherwise YOUR POSTING IS VERY IMPORTANT AND SHOULD BE READ BY ALL WOULD BE E2ers.
In general do not convert from B to E visas unless you are e.g visiting for a year to ones US relatives and had no intent to emigrate when you arrived. If you come over on a B visa and intend to find a business and then stay and try and convert to an E visa YOU WILL BE REFUSED

Just curious, how is it, that from a B to E visa, converting once here, isnt recommended, but if you are on a B and then convert to an L visa, as paul mentioned earlier, it is favourable???:confused:

[peter gold]

I never said B to L was favourable either

[tracifrost]

ettena,

If you don't want to sit on a plane back to US wondering if you'll be let in, then my only suggestion would be to start a UK company immediately. Make it the parent-company of your US company, work for 12 months in the UK and then do an L1 transfer back to the US (and adjust status to permanent resident once you arrive). Paul

Not peter, paul mentioned this,

[DEE F]

And why do people change from B to an E visa???????Because for most of them,that is the sort of crap advice they are given by their so called lawyers,so where does the blame lie,who will be the one earning money out of it,certainly not the poor sod stranded up S**t creek without a paddle,and if you are naive like a lot of us are when we first come here,we tend to put our trust in these people,who gladly take our money,enough said !!!!!!!

Dee xxx

[JulieC]

B to E is becoming the standard way and it is wrong for reasons everyone knows. Business brokers are perpetuating this, obviously it gets both their commission and the seller his sales proceeds earlier but can land the buyer with loads of problems. When I applied for my E2, the broker assumed I would do this, I fought against it but I honestly think I only managed to convince both broker and seller that I would go the full visa route because I was applying in an embassy other than London. When my contract arrived sure enough it was worded contingent on change of status to E2 not contingent on issue of E2 so used were they to doing this that they were on auto pilot ( it went back for amendment). The escrow lawyer also thought I would be going the same route. Many many people who dont read the forums and without my prior knowledge would have assumed that this was the standard and recommended way to go and fallen into line.

[Bayfield]

And why do people change from B to an E visa???????Because for most of them,that is the sort of crap advice they are given by their so called lawyers,so where does the blame lie,who will be the one earning money out of it,certainly not the poor sod stranded up S**t creek without a paddle,and if you are naive like a lot of us are when we first come here,we tend to put our trust in these people,who gladly take our money,enough said !!!!!!!

Dee xxx

Not my area, but I could have sworn I have seen posts involving people who have been told this and just do not want to listen.

[JulieC]

You are right there, Bayfield, and I have to say I have seen posts on other forums from people who have done this successfully who even advocate it in reply to people asking for advice. Basically if you do it and it works out, you think it is great. Then someone comes unstuck...