DHS to ban US citizen travel without prior permission?

[punky]

Doesn't look good. Linky (http://sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3023)

Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14,
2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us
permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all
airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain
clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the
United States.

It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport - a "travel document"
that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually
unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you
want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the
agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the
request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United
States.

However, as it is blatantly unconstitutional, who knows if its ever implemented.. However the fact its being suggested isn't good. Citizens should have an absolute right to re-enter their country of citizenship. Looks like the US could be joining Cuba in terms of human rights...

[kebab king]

Hi Punky

Your 'linky' don't 'worky' - well not for me anyway - and I can't find anything about it on the dhs website.

Have you got any other info or links to it?

Thanks
Kristina

[haytonmac]

Lets look at this practically.
How any Americans, let alloan visa holders travel in and out of the States for work at the drop of a hat? In the States people catch planes like we catch bus's.
What admin headaches will this create for the government?.
I am still in the UK, and have, on a couple of occasions, got a flight across with a couple of days notice so this has a direct implication on me.
Industry, the Airlines and "the people" will have a problem with this. How many American companies will be up in arms because they have to get clearance before flying to clinch that deal?
Is this real, or can it work?

Craig in Nottinghamshire:rolleyes:

[punky]

Hi Punky

Your 'linky' don't 'worky' - well not for me anyway - and I can't find anything about it on the dhs website.

Have you got any other info or links to it?

Thanks
Kristina

I just double checked it, and it works for me. Here's some more links anyway:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_ezekiel_061104_homeland_security_ti.htm (there's a few more links inside this one)
http://hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf

Lets look at this practically.
How any Americans, let alloan visa holders travel in and out of the States for work at the drop of a hat? In the States people catch planes like we catch bus's.
What admin headaches will this create for the government?.
I am still in the UK, and have, on a couple of occasions, got a flight across with a couple of days notice so this has a direct implication on me.
Industry, the Airlines and "the people" will have a problem with this. How many American companies will be up in arms because they have to get clearance before flying to clinch that deal?
Is this real, or can it work?

Craig in Nottinghamshire:rolleyes:

According to the proposal, this is all done with 60 minutes, so it wouldn't affect last-minute travel. 60 minutes prior to departure, the airlines will send all passenger information to the CBP/DHS. They will then send back a list of everyone the permit to travel. Apparently, they won't say on what grounds they will permit or deny travel.

How this changes from the current system is that currently the DHS provide the airlines with a list of people unable to fly. If the person is on there, the airline refuses to carry them. However, they are proposing to flip it the other way around where DHS will provide a list of who is able to fly, which is swapping the burden-of-proof around. Apparently they are classifiing the descision making progress, and usual US government application rules apply. Allegedly there will be no appeals (standard policy with immigration, for example) and if they can't make a descision within 60 mins, (which doesn't seem a lot of time), or they have the slightest doubt, then they will probably just deny you (which allegedly also happens with immigration).

[Susie]

Hi

Thank you Punky for sharing

I am amazed at what I have just read


We're All Prisoners, Now: US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance'' to Leave USA



October 26, 2006

Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14,
2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us
permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all
airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain
clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the
United States.

It doesn't matter if you have a U.S. Passport - a "travel document"
that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually
unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you
want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the
agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the
request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United
States.

Consider what might happen if you're a U.S. passport holder on
assignment in a country like Saudi Arabia. Your visa is about to
expire, so you board your flight back to the United States. But wait!
You can't get on, because you don't have permission from the HSA.
Saudi immigration officials are on hand to escort you to a squalid
detention center, where you and others who are now effectively
"stateless persons" are detained, potentially indefinitely, until
their immigration status is sorted out.

Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United
States? No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be
an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of
appeal. Naturally, the decision would be made without a warrant,
without probable cause and without even any particular degree of
suspicion. Basically, if the HSA decides it doesn't like you, you're
a prisoner - either outside, or inside, the United States, whether or
not you hold a U.S. passport.

The U.S. Supreme Court has long recognized there is a constitutional
right to travel internationally. Indeed, it has declared that the
right to travel is "a virtually unconditional personal right." The
United States has also signed treaties guaranteeing "freedom of
travel." So if these regulations do go into effect, you can expect a
lengthy court battle, both nationally and internationally.

Think this can't happen? Think again. It's ALREADY happening. Earlier
this year, HSA forbade airlines from transporting an 18-year-old a
native-born U.S. citizen, back to the United States. The prohibition
lasted nearly six months until it was finally lifted a few weeks ago.
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history
that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission.
If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to
this list.

For more information on this proposed regulation, see http://
hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf.


Comments?

[haytonmac]

Didnt the E.U take court action against this proposed regulation?saying that it was against data protection and that the DHS could not force E.U carriers to either give or forward this information? I could be wrong but I do remember just before I left there was a big do about it and all the E.U carriers stopped giving the info.So be interesting to know what happens next ,cant see this going down well in Europe ?!!!! as after 9/11 all flights into the US had forward their passanger list and INS would decided if you may come in ie no fly list all very big brother to me!

[floridapete]

Didnt the E.U take court action against this proposed regulation?saying that it was against data protection and that the DHS could not force E.U carriers to either give or forward this information? I could be wrong but I do remember just before I left there was a big do about it and all the E.U carriers stopped giving the info.So be interesting to know what happens next ,cant see this going down well in Europe ?!!!! as after 9/11 all flights into the US had forward their passanger list and INS would decided if you may come in ie no fly list all very big brother to me!

No, the EU discussion was all about the other way around - the US demanding 34 items of personal data from EU and UK travellers BEFORE clearing them to even take off from a EU/UK departure point to fly the USA. This already happens every day at every airport in the EU and UK, whether you realise it or not, and the EU courts were concerned (as they should be) about the further and future use of all of this personal data by other US agencies. Big brother indeed !

No, the EU have had no concerns, after all why would they, about the personal rights of US citizens to leave their own country. They would and should, however, have interests and concerns about any US citizens entering the UK or EU. That is a very different discussion.

However, nothing surprises me anymore about the way that the US is going - they are are rapidly becoming a 'police state' under the insidious cover of Bush's Patriot Act - a one size fits all attempt to control everyones lives.

You are very welcome to your new life in a country which no longer is 'the land of the free' !

[Kriz1]

Its funny how people in the UK think the US is a police State....and people over here think the UK is...from what I've been hearing from my family over the last few months in the UK...I think England is way ahead of the USA right now when it comes to everyday interference into daily life...

[victoria]

Sorry to be dim, but is this any different from what Uk Airlines require from you at the moment? In which case so far, touch wood, it hasn't caused any delays for me - we've filled it in on line literally on the way to the airport & it hasn't been an issue (famous last words...).

[Emmalee25]

Yeah,
Virgin have been doing it for ages, you have to confirm ALL travel details on line before you travel, home address in UK, address in USA, inside leg measurement etc......
we do it when we book the tickets, takes about 5mins
Em x

[Kriz1]

Sorry to be dim, but is this any different from what Uk Airlines require from you at the moment? In which case so far, touch wood, it hasn't caused any delays for me - we've filled it in on line literally on the way to the airport & it hasn't been an issue (famous last words...).

Before the plane could take off and be rerouted if someone of interest was found onboard...now its done while the plane is still on the ground....

[punky]

Another Link (http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.theregister.com/2006/11/06/grounded_until_further_notice/
)

Its a bit odd. The only news outlets that seem to have picked this up are IT ones. I found it originally on Slashdot but now TheRegister seems to have picked it up.

Odd.