Renewal tears and fears

[chris]

We've been here 6 years on E2 and have successfully extended our status via USCIS 3 times now without a hitch. That is until now!
Each time has been via Mesquite Texas, till this year when we were advised on the USCIS website to file via Vermont. The acknowledgemnt came back from California, which seems to be handling the overflow for Vermont.
Anyhow, for the first time we were advised they wanted additional information and late yesterday the dreaded USCIS envelope arrived. They have asked for extra information on 3 issues, chief amongst them 'marginality'. I don't profess to be running a Microsoft, nor do I have the employee list of GM. We are essentially the archetypal 'Mom & Pop' operation as the Yanks would say and whilst we don't make megabucks, we pay our way, make a profit and use subcontractors for our jobs which is the custom and practise in our industry. We have until February 2007 to provide the answers to their questions at which point they make a decision, one way or t'other.
We have 2 young kids 8 and 11, who are really bright and a credit to us, and to an extent the US education system. We keep them involved in what we do and why we are here. They know we are going through the USCIS extension bit and today we explained we were being asked for extra information, but if we didn't supply to the USCIS satisfaction, we would have to go back to Europe, most likely back to UK. My eldest was in tears and my wife was crying as much as he was. The youngest understands to an extent. We didn't want to keep our kids in blissful ignorance until you suddenly say, pack you bags we're off, we are not like that.
But it home today, just what horrendous human hurdles the US Govt put people through. The USCIS paperwork comes anonymous, so the individual who has the power of stay or go over you is never known to you and has no idea about you at all. That decision, especially on marginality is all about the bottom line and is subjective at best. Yet there is a human element behind most every visa holder called a family unit and I really wonder whether USCIS take note of that or really care. Whilst my kids do not make an iota of difference to the bottom line of the business, through their high achievements (1 is A+ Honor, the other Gifted program) at school, they are benefitting both themselves and their US school and ultimately the US. In a few years post schooling those same young adults would be a credit to any country, yet the US takes not a blind bit of notice of that by againg them out at 21, nor any community contribution made by their parents. By contrast our 12,000,000 pick the oranges, stucco walls, have babies, hold back and overburden both the education and public medical system, and yet are rewarded for all they do not do for this country. As business owners, as mentioned by others E2'rs we are not a drain on the US welfare system, we don't create 'anchor babies' either. Today was not a good day for me as a parent and made me really question what I have done to my kids by bringing them here back in 2000. Perhaps if the system were fairer, I might feel more optimistic, but right now I am very angry. We are working on hopefully getting paperwork together that will satisfy the anonymous one, but hand on heart, I am not hopeful. I do hope my next post on this will be about approval not denial.

[anniefromessex]

Hi Chris,

Well, what can anyone say to you! If you read my post 'out of the mouths of babes' you will see that one of my points is about E-2 Visa holders never having rights and Uncle Sam making you jump through hoops that ordinary Americans do not have to do in their businesses. I imagine that you run a Management Company (you say you use Sub Contractors) which is what most Americans use when running this type of Company, but I believe on talking to other Brits who run Management Companies that they have to actually employ people for grass cutting, pool cleaning etc etc!! What do this country dislike so much about us? For the most part we are all hardworking (it's not an easy ride living here), if they think we are taking 'true' Americans jobs, they need to think again. I know a lot of people who run Management Companies and it is a 7 day a week job, with very little thanks at the end of it!

My husband works for several Management Companies (he is what they call out here a Handyman, his trade is an Electrician but he can do most jobs), and on speaking to a lot of people out here they will tell you trying to get someone to do any work, let alone turn up when they see they will, is rare. One guy we know had a problem on one of his houses with a burst pipe, my husband couldn't do anything to help him as he is on crutches at the moment, but it took two days to get anyone to come out, even those who were advertising 24 Hour Emergency Work! It's laughable really isn't it.

I really hope and pray that you get your approval, that is why we have all got to stick together and fight to get some common sense and compassion from these people to whom we are just a number.

Good luck. Kind regards.
Annie

[DebbieM]

Chris

What can I say?

My heart goes out to you and your family, to be dealt such a blow when you work hard and try to do things the right way is so unfair. Many of us on this forum will join you in the many sleepless nights that lie ahead, as we too face the same hurdles as you. I commend you for being so honest with your kids, in my mind there is no other way no matter how upsetting it is to do.

If there is anything I can do to help - just ask. I agree with Annie wholeheartedly we have to fight this together and I wish you and your family all the luck in the world (and I think it comes down to luck at the end of the day) I truly do.

Keep us posted.

Debs

[anniefromessex]

I know I have just posted but I was telling my husband your plight Chris and he was sooo angry on your behalf.

The other night when I was at the Committee Meeting I voiced the opinion that surely we had some "rights". Not that we have a right to live here or a right to automatic renewal, but everybody in the world - even a gunman who shoots 20 people dead on the street has a right to a lawyer and a fair trial. In my opinion as Brits it is our right to a fair hearing at the hands of USCIS or any of the other capital letters that are used in this country for the Immigration Service. At this moment in time our rights are being denied because you hear time and time again that other nationalities are approved in a matter of weeks, whilst we have to jump through hoops to get a fair and proper "trial"!!!

Until we can all stand together and be heard I don't think anything is going to change any time soon (if at all). My husband is still of the opinion that between us all we could hire a good lawyer who could take this to the top because I think there are some very dirty dealings going on between Bush and Blair - you only have to look and see what is in front of our eyes that we, as Brits, are being turned down willy nilly yet others get an easy ride. You are not going to tell me that their cases or businesses or whatever are better than ours because I just wont believe it. In the case of my son his application was correct and good in all points of law and should have been approved but it wasn't.

I will never understand why E-2ers always have the threat of being sent back to England over their heads, this is one thing that surely needs to be changed and, as with your kids Chris, what good prospects they would be for this country in the future.

I would love to hear everybody elses views on whether we have any "rights"
be it human or civil rights?!! In the 50's the blacks managed to change the way they were treated and, rightly so - it was inhuman the way they were treated and it was their right to be treated the same as white's. Surely we have a right to be treated the same as other nationalities. Views please!!

[mandybenn]

Hi

We are still in the UK and have just sent all our paperwork in to our Immigration Lawyer to begin an L1 application.

It seems the biggest issue is the London Embassy. Although we 'the UK' are supposed to be allies with the US it seems that they are very nervous about letting any British people in to America. This stems from 9/11 and can you blame them when the UK has a massive Immigration issue themselves, and are not controlling it very well. I certainly don't agree with how we are being treat in respect of entering and staying in the USA but when you live in the UK you can understand a little better.

We have Polish, Romanian, Czech, Bosnian etc flooding in and my childs school alone has new children arriving weekly who need interpreters. I think the USA are scared of the impact to them and their security. What infuriates me is that we all have to suffer.

I'm not in to Politics at all but as others have stated we are not being treated as individuals just as 'British' and I have to say I'm not sure they want us in the States.

Our L1 documents have covered all areas in depth and they have our life story in their hands. We have no gaps to our knowledge, so lets see!! we are expecting a long and hard fight.

Mandy:notworthy:

[britcan]

Thank God- look at my posting E2 Visa pressure group... if Susie has Attny Lavigne on her side then he would be the person to start with. This is exactly what I have been saying. Enough is enough- us Brits stick with the USA through thick and thin and we have got to stop being treated this way.Somehow we need to get to the Government of both countries. I am in Canada but we watch CNN every night and Lou Dobbs. As you guys are in the USa already- why don't you see if you can reach out through him somehow, perhaps with Attny Lavigne? Lou Dobbs is always on about illegals and I have emailed him so many times telling him about the E2 visa and how us Brits have to spend$$$ to get a look in and the Southern border is wide open.

I am only a Jnr member Chris but I feel your plight- we Brits need to stand together. I am still waiting for my E2 visa through Toronto as a Canadian and trust me, it does'nt make it any easier being a canuck.

[Emmalee25]

Oh Chris,
You have had me in tears mate!!! 6 years down the line and THEN the problems start for you! what have you done? you have run your business well enough to turn a profit and pay americans wages, you live an honest life, pay taxes and are a family man, your kids think of the US as their home, their friends and schooling all here! and you get kicked in the arse!
I wish you all the luck in the world mate! but why are they questioning marginality 6 years down the line? if you and your family are surviving on the income from a biz you originally invested into 6 years ago, what the hell has that to do with anything!

My husband and I made quite a momentous decision today, and after reading your post im glad we made it.

My heart goes out to you and yours, I wish i could help! if i can! just ask!
Em x

[JulieC]

I dont think Chris does run a management company. But other businesses use subcontractors too. They have a downer on subbies at the moment and make you employ people you dont need. Subbies you can lay off and bring in when you need them, employees you cant. The idea seems to be to make you run a business which would be profitable and run it unprofitably, but the reason we are here is to employ Americans. Unless you can afford to employ Americans and still pay yourself a minimum owner benefit, you are seen as marginal. And the goalposts have moved over the six years and are now further apart. I do think the fact that you havent been back to get a visa for so long wont have helped either. Good luck, hope it works out.

[Susie]

Hi Chris,

What can I say except, enough is enough, time for action, please think about joining the committee,


Right, Lets start by fundraising and gather ideas (which is part of the committee's agenda , anyway) and get some cash together, we can then ask James if he would be prepared to cut us a deal and help to write a proposed amendment to the Dream act to include children of E visa holders being allowed to adjust status to that of LPR , subject to good moral character

We can also start drafting out petition for a compassionate visa, children who are devastaed can sign, take the petiton to their schools, get other children to sign and teachers

I could ask Punky or web master to put a donate button on our website, this would be purely on a volentary basis, as much as or little as people can afford.

So if our site has helped you or any member in any way and feel you would like to donate, that would be fantastic, however small

I will open the site up to paid for adverts, this would also help to rasie funds

If anyone would like to get together to discuss, I am willing to hold an urgent meeting at my home, just say the word guys

Anyone got other ideas? if so please post.


Chris, keep your chin up, I will send you a pm

[Ron]

Chris, sorry to read about your ref. To renew twice before now this must have come as a bolt out of the blue. Cannot really get to grips with what the real problem is unless they mean you do not employ enough usc's in your business.

[Kriz1]

I think one point to make is that most of you are employing Americans when most larger US companies are laying off Americans and sending all the work to places like India...my husbands company being one of those places...they laid off 57 Americans...but over the last few months took on 22 Indians who are still working...it is now company policy to replace anyone leaving the company with people from India...because as the boss says you get more bang for your buck with Indians...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[STEVE T]

hi chris, i feel bad for you mate, i have two girls growing up here it has really scared me, and i agree the big thing is the guilt for our kids what have we done, but knowing this country chris you wont hear anything for months maybe a year because of the bs system try not to look in thr rear view mirror go forward , and lets all try to get someone hired to shout louder than before for the expats we are coming to a bad time for all visa holders , but whatever happens were tougher than they are ,and we will survive anywhere, keep fighting mate steve t

[haytonmac]

Hi Chris I feel so bad for you and your family ,and everyone else on the forum who find themselves in this postion and I/we will try help in anyway we can.All the best

[Bobby]

Chris,

Your case and life scenario epitomizes all that is wrong with this immigration system.

I presume nothing much has changed over the 6 years and you are able to obviously feed, cloth and keep a roof overhead. Where's the problem?
You're not draining anything apart from your own bank account and resources. It's ludicrous that you are asked for information regarding being marginal. Sometimes I thought the letters I received weren't even connected to my case and I kinda ignored most of it, as it seemed like generic automatic computer responses! Maybe that's just me, but when I was being asked if my employees degrees were comparable with US baccalaureate it just made me laugh. It's a bloody pool company. We're lucky our employees can spell their own name and drive a vehicle in a straight line!! lol

All's not lost. You're still operating and all you have to do is show them that you've been doing the same successfully and consistently and hope that they see that.
Good luck. I wish you the best and keep your chin up. You did the right thing with your kids.

Bobby

[lorraine]

Hi Chris I read your story and my heart goes out to you. It STINKS I have told some of our American friends and they are in total disbelief. How unfair honest hardworking families should not have to go through this nightmare. I wish you all the luck in the world and we all have our fingers crossed for you. kindest regards to you all lorrainex

[DebbieM]

Hi Chris

Your situation has been on my mind since I read your post yesterday. The impact of it has been so far reaching from other threads I've read today.

Can I ask you to clarify something for me? You say that you have renewed your status successfully on two previous occasions - does this mean that you have not renewed your actual visa?

Therefore am I correct in thinking that if you keep renewing your status and I understand that you send through all the documentation you would with a renewal you could stay here indefinately (providing you get renewed status) without having to go back to London but are landlocked until you do?

Given that for those who change from B2 to E2 via Texas or maybe now Vermont (?) there are differences between what Texas think is OK and what the US Embassy in London think is OK, do you think that by questioning your case now, this is another way they are tightening up on things?

Of course all of the above is assumption as I do not know all the facts of your case but I have been trying to be objective in my thoughts and try to think of why they should now be questioning your business.

Please don't think I'm trying to be smart or judgmental just trying to understand why. Perhaps there is no reason that we are aware of and this is just part of the bigger changes that appear to be on the horizon.

Hope you feel a bit more positive about it all after sleeping on it.

Debs

[britcan]

Hi Chris,

What can I say except, enough is enough, time for action, please think about joining the committee,


Right, Lets start by fundraising and gather ideas (which is part of the committee's agenda , anyway) and get some cash together, we can then ask James if he would be prepared to cut us a deal and help to write a proposed amendment to the Dream act to include children of E visa holders being allowed to adjust status to that of LPR , subject to good moral character

We can also start drafting out petition for a compassionate visa, children who are devastaed can sign, take the petiton to their schools, get other children to sign and teachers

I could ask Punky or web master to put a donate button on our website, this would be purely on a volentary basis, as much as or little as people can afford.

So if our site has helped you or any member in any way and feel you would like to donate, that would be fantastic, however small

I will open the site up to paid for adverts, this would also help to rasie funds

If anyone would like to get together to discuss, I am willing to hold an urgent meeting at my home, just say the word guys

Anyone got other ideas? if so please post.


Chris, keep your chin up, I will send you a pm
Hi Susie- so what about my idea of involving the media and Attny Lavigne? He is going to be missing out on potential business because once word gets out there, Brits are going to think twice about going to USa,and so the Attnys won't be getting the business.

[chris]

Thanks everyone for your kind words of support and encouragement. It means a lot to me and my family. For those who have asked questions on our background, here are some answers:
We don't run a management company. We run a biz supplying embroidered and screen-printed apparel, promotional products and business stationery. We were a start up biz in 2000 and turned into profit by YR 3. Startups don't generally expect to turn into profit until YR 5. Our VA screwed up the E2 renewal in 2002, after taking us for $3500. Because of the hassles and crap shoot of London, we decided to simply extend status via USCIS and stay landlocked until we felt we'd have a strong case for London. We extended status via Texas in 2002 & 2004 without a prob. This year the Service Center changed to Vermont and now we have probs?
What we sent in each time hasn't varied in composition, only updated to show current performance, etc. USCIS are clearly scrutinising things more closely than they were. We have NOT BEEN REFUSED, we have been asked at this stage for additional information. However, I believe will have probs.
The USCIS letter highlighted 3 areas. 2 questions related to investment amount (if they read the paperwork they'd see it's in one section and tabbed as such). They've asked for copies of all licenses. Apart from one we noticed we'd omitted, everything is there and supplying the missing one is not a problem. The chief problem area I see is the marginality. They don't ask any question, only quote an extract from the Immigration Act on Marginality. I have to assume the onus is on me to prove that my business is more than 'marginal' and has 'substantial' income. Yet these 2 words are subjective at best and nowhere in the Act are these words quantified. What is marginal and substantial unless set against some yardstick? The main problem with this very grey area of the act is that what is margianal and substantial can mean different things to different people.
I don't intend to roll over on this and will be putting pen to paper over the coming weeks. As our emotions have settled since I first posted, one thing we decided was that should we be granted a 2 year extension, it will be our last and we will call it quits - we just don't think it fair on the kids. In our time here we endured the aftermath of 911, the downturn in the US economy when they invaded Iraq, the 3 hurricanes in 6 weeks and this year $3.00 per gallon and the impact on the US economy. But an anonymous dipstick civil servant in California has won the day and we don't intend to put up with it any longer - we are not masochists. If America wants America for Americans, they are welcome to it. For us Europe beckons, with freedom of movemnt, freedom of abode, less anguish on healthcare. We may go back to England or may try elsewhere in the EU. We have put up with one hassle or another for 6 years, we may get another 2 but that's our lot - we're done with the American Dream.

[JulieC]

All I can say is will the last person out please put the lights out. You arnt the only one to feel this way, wont be the first or the last, a certain person who runs a teashop who is on another forum decided the same and after he eventually struggled his way through!. I have to say I think this is what they intend, they are playing lip service to the treaty only because they have to, I really think they think the less of us they let in and the more of us leave the better. Meanwhile half a mill to invest in some run down area of the US, come in and heres a green card. Enough said.

[Bobby]

Let me just put a slightly different slant on this thread for the benefit of anyone reading who is thinking about gassing up the car in the garage or not even going to bother submitting their next (or first), renewal paperwork ......

There are thousands of successful immigrants from the UK living and working in the United States right now.

This site was founded out of frustration with the system and therefor attracts members of similar (dis)position. Rightly or wrongly. It's a great medium for all of us in the same boat. Including me.

An amount of it scares the hell out of the average Joe because he doesn't want to go down the same path as some of the horror stories.

It has to be noted, however, that those who have successfully transited the immigration minefield (and there are thousands), are now too busy running successful companies to be bothered helping those who can or can't get visas behind them. Hence, we don't get enough of their input on the site.

There's a "golden egg" in the States, compared to what we left behind, and I'd guess that most of us on here are clever enough to see that, or we wouldn't be here, so please don't get all bitter and twisted because it didn't work out the way we planned.

Whilst I appreciate that it seems that the path to permanent immigration is getting more difficult, ....those are the choices that we made.

Even on E-2, I bet you still told everyone down the pub that you were selling up and moving to America for good and not coming back!

This post is not directed at anyone in particular, but is merely my slant on things as more and more forum members become discontent.

We either have to stand up and be counted and soldier forward with the hurdles in front of us or realize that it's not THAT important any more and make our OWN choices to have a better life elsewhere.

Each to their own, but we make our OWN beds in this life.

Bobby

[Susie]

Hi Susie- so what about my idea of involving the media and Attny Lavigne? He is going to be missing out on potential business because once word gets out there, Brits are going to think twice about going to USa,and so the Attnys won't be getting the business.


Hi

Yes I agree,

James is horrified at what is going on and once he gets the bit between his teeth they better watch out. I am sure he would help us at a very good discount

I replied in another posting about having an urgent open meeting at my home and would invite James and Kelly Griffiths of the Sentinel and Bill Ruffty of the ledger to attend

I will be taking to webmaster or Punky to see if we can have a donate button, saying something like, if you feel this site has helped you volentary donations to futher our cause this would be greatly appreciated, definately no pressure to pay though

Paid for banner adverts as well maybe?

Please let me know your thoughts

[Susie]

Bobby[/QUOTE]

This site was founded out of frustration with the system and therefor attracts members of similar (dis)position. Rightly or wrongly. It's a great medium for all of us in the same boat. Including me.

An amount of it scares the hell out of the average Joe because he doesn't want to go down the same path as some of the horror stories.

Hi Bobby

What a fnatasic post, you have got it 100% correct,

I just extracted the above quotes to reply

Thank you for saying this site is a great medium I think we will find that soon more and more approvals will start to follow, this will raise spirts no end. I truly hope that anyone who gets to go through any sort of immigration problem that finds our site helpful will continue to stay, post and support the many others who will need support in the future.

Bearing in mind this site is still very new. It was only set up apprx 7 months ago and for at least 3-4 of those months I was not in a position to try and move the site forward due to the passing of my husband. I am and will continue to greive but am told time is a great healer, but only time will tell. Trust me, one day I am not too bad the next, a complete wreck and can hardly function at all

The types of sad cases also scare the hell out of me too, who knows if someone might even have a breakdown over their cases, please god no, but what will be will be and we as a group must continue to strive to support each other even when our own cases are resolved

I strongly believe that 2007 is the year for immigration change , if we keep the pressure up. The bigger this site grows, the more media interest we will be able to command, the bigger the group the more vocal we will become

[anniefromessex]

Hi Everybody who has posted re Chris's dilemma.

I am totally in agreement with Bobby and Britcan - we need to make our voices heard and as I have said in my previous posting if we all donated ex amount it has surely got to go someway in retaining an Attorney, be it James LaVigne or somebody else. I think Chris's posting has got the bit between our teeth, so far everybody has been nice and calm about things, until they get the dreaded letter - after all while things are running along smoothly you don't really think too much about it.

I have been talking to my son today explaining what he will need to re-apply and to get the ball rolling now (he will not be re-applying until March/April time next year). I explained to him about what had happened with Chris and also that I had been reading on this forum about the guy at the Embassy in London saying that people are getting agreed when their cases meet all the criteria, etc etc (the usual b.s.); he replied by saying that the problem lies with them moving the goalposts all the time! When I thought about it, that is very true and I am sure that most of you will have come across this at some stage.

When I replied to Chris's posting I really did think he had a Management Company, because they have the same problems he does, ie employing pool guys, grass guys, etc etc. Anybody in the real world knows that this is not really viable, especially when you have just started up - by the time you match their medicare and social security payments you could end up losing money big time, all for the sake of the good ole USofA seeing you risking your butt to live here!! I am sorry but when my husband first started up there was no way he could actually employ people, hell he didn't have work half the time so why should he employ someone to stand around and do nothing just to appease Immigration. To be honest I am heartily sick of them, I would love to see them either start up a Company or buy a Company and make it work in the time-scale they give you, as far as I am concerned they are sanctimonious b......s and I am done with them!!

I am fed up pussyfooting around so they can say 'jump' and we say 'how high'. Enough is enough and I am all for getting this situation sorted once and for all. As I have said before, if you are an E-2 Visa holder you never have any rights, you might have invested your life savings in this country but do they thank you, NO THEY DO NOT. Why should anyone live under these rules and regulations, it is inhumane and it's about time that we stood up to be counted!

Even now, in my husbands line of business, even back in England when he was running the Company over there, he only used subbies, after all what is the point of employing guys to stand around doing nothing, that is professional and financial suicide - is that what they want out here. I know they go on about they like to see you risking your money - duh, who do they think we are - idiots each and every one of us! I am going to fight this or die trying! What American would jump through hoops like we do, they would laugh at us if they knew.

Susie, you know my number if you need me - I am sick and tired of living in limbo and would rather go back to England and live in that sh..hole than live the rest of my live cowtowing to this country and their rules and regulations. Even though we have Green Cards they still hold the upper hand because they don't like you being out of the country any longer than (I think it's 6 months). It's a case of don't want you here but don't want you to go!

Everybody who is with me, say Aye!! Only joking - this is not Mutinity on the Bounty, but I am soo mad at the moment I could spit!!!

[anniemm]

Hi sue

Even though I'm a newcomer, i would like to help in any way i can. i think what you are trying to achieve is fantastic and i would like to help in any way i can.
As you know we are thinking of going to the states on an E2 Visa, but after all ive been reading I'm gonna look into all possible routes.

Even though I'm in the UK i would still like to help in any way i can, if there's anything i can do let me know

I would like to donate, please let me know how to

Thanks and good luck..






Yes I agree,

James is horrified at what is going on and once he gets the bit between his teeth they better watch out. I am sure he would help us at a very good discount

I replied in another posting about having an urgent open meeting at my home and would invite James and Kelly Griffiths of the Sentinel and Bill Ruffty of the ledger to attend

I will be taking to webmaster or Punky to see if we can have a donate button, saying something like, if you feel this site has helped you volentary donations to futher our cause this would be greatly appreciated, definately no pressure to pay though

Paid for banner adverts as well maybe?

Please let me know your thoughts

[anniemm]

Hi Chris

My heart goes out to you.
I dont understand the ins and outs of how these things should progress, as ive just started to do some investgations.
From the stories I've been reading the whole situation is scandelous.
The law re Ageing out, and people being Landlocked is ridiculous in this day and age.
I hope that Susie and everyone on here can make a difference.


good luck to you and you family in all you do


We've been here 6 years on E2 and have successfully extended our status via USCIS 3 times now without a hitch. That is until now!
Each time has been via Mesquite Texas, till this year when we were advised on the USCIS website to file via Vermont. The acknowledgemnt came back from California, which seems to be handling the overflow for Vermont.
Anyhow, for the first time we were advised they wanted additional information and late yesterday the dreaded USCIS envelope arrived. They have asked for extra information on 3 issues, chief amongst them 'marginality'. I don't profess to be running a Microsoft, nor do I have the employee list of GM. We are essentially the archetypal 'Mom & Pop' operation as the Yanks would say and whilst we don't make megabucks, we pay our way, make a profit and use subcontractors for our jobs which is the custom and practise in our industry. We have until February 2007 to provide the answers to their questions at which point they make a decision, one way or t'other.
We have 2 young kids 8 and 11, who are really bright and a credit to us, and to an extent the US education system. We keep them involved in what we do and why we are here. They know we are going through the USCIS extension bit and today we explained we were being asked for extra information, but if we didn't supply to the USCIS satisfaction, we would have to go back to Europe, most likely back to UK. My eldest was in tears and my wife was crying as much as he was. The youngest understands to an extent. We didn't want to keep our kids in blissful ignorance until you suddenly say, pack you bags we're off, we are not like that.
But it home today, just what horrendous human hurdles the US Govt put people through. The USCIS paperwork comes anonymous, so the individual who has the power of stay or go over you is never known to you and has no idea about you at all. That decision, especially on marginality is all about the bottom line and is subjective at best. Yet there is a human element behind most every visa holder called a family unit and I really wonder whether USCIS take note of that or really care. Whilst my kids do not make an iota of difference to the bottom line of the business, through their high achievements (1 is A+ Honor, the other Gifted program) at school, they are benefitting both themselves and their US school and ultimately the US. In a few years post schooling those same young adults would be a credit to any country, yet the US takes not a blind bit of notice of that by againg them out at 21, nor any community contribution made by their parents. By contrast our 12,000,000 pick the oranges, stucco walls, have babies, hold back and overburden both the education and public medical system, and yet are rewarded for all they do not do for this country. As business owners, as mentioned by others E2'rs we are not a drain on the US welfare system, we don't create 'anchor babies' either. Today was not a good day for me as a parent and made me really question what I have done to my kids by bringing them here back in 2000. Perhaps if the system were fairer, I might feel more optimistic, but right now I am very angry. We are working on hopefully getting paperwork together that will satisfy the anonymous one, but hand on heart, I am not hopeful. I do hope my next post on this will be about approval not denial.

[chris]

I don't take umbridge at the bulk of your comments Bobby. I am sure your friendly foe Peter may but not me.
First of all I agree that there are many who make the transition successfully and I would not deter anyone from coming simply because it appears not to have worked out for us. Indeed I have made that very same suggestion to DebbieM who has decided to pull out from pursuing her E2. I cannot agree with your 'I bet you boasted about it at the pub'. That smacks of that's what you thought and look at you now. Lets draw a clear distinction between permanent immigration and temporary stay. I did know what I was doing in the first place and knew that the E2 was never going to be 'permanent'. I also believe it should not be easy to get here. A good initial system should and will weed out the week and ill prepared. However, having successfully got through those initial hurdles, life should not become a constant bureaucratic mountain to climb. As a business person you know as well as anyone, that investment is part of planning, its also part of our family lives too. With the amount of uncertainty we have to endure and even with approvals, we are increasingly being time restrained. You cannot plan effectively when all US bureaucracy will allow you is 24 months ahead. With the Florida statute change in Driving Licenses to 12 months, the ability to function will become even more a problem at times. It is ultimately unworkable. That is the main reason for our decision not to inflict pain on ourselves any longer. For those who have big chunks of cash to throw at the situation, I am sure they will be as successful here as they probably were in the UK, the UK will happily allow you to buy your way in to a GC. For those even luckier to have gained GC's for entry by employment, that is even better and their education in the UK has paid them dividends. But there are many, I'm one of them, who had a sizeable chunk of investment, didn't have degrees coming out of my ears, but who had sucessfully started and run their own business in the UK and I like to think has his head screwed on the right way. The E2 is really the only route open to us. I only wanted to chance to do that here without the sort of unnecceasry hurdles we have to put up with.
When I posted out situation last week, I simply wanted to highlight the fact that even after 6 years, trying to make a life here is not easy with the immigration bureaucracy and it is not getting any easier. For many people the hassles have all tended to come out of London. One consequence of that is an increasing number of potential E2'rs have come the B2 convert to E2 route to avoid the London bottleneck. However, it appears that USCIS are now tightening the screws at their end. In the final analysis, both depts utilise the Immigration Act for their decisions, but like so many decisions here, it is subject to personal interpretation by people who ordinarily you probably would not trust to guide you across the road, let alone decide your future.
I applaud all the people who contribute to Foriums such as this one. At least they have taken the view that they can and want to help others. I have mentioned more than once before that many visas holders use the forums to simply get out what they want, but once they have visa in hand they disappear to make their fortune and do not pay back in to the Forum system. That is a 'take, take' mentality which in a way will serve these people well in America, because it in many ways it is increasingly a 'take, take' culture.
I have no intentions whatsoever to get bitter and twisted about our situation, though I am angry. At the end of the day, at this stage all USCIS have asked for is additional information. However, I am wise enough to recognise that the writing is on the wall for us and after putting up with the Americans way of handling immigration, I've had enough and I care more about the well being of my family than a 3000 sq ft house, a gas guzzling car and sun for most of they year.
I do not want, nor will I appreciate anyone starting a crusade on my behalf. There are others who deserve that treatment more and we have made a decision not to stay any longer than is absolutely necessary. Even if we got the extension for 2 years, it would be our last. So anyone who wants to fight for injustice in the immigration system, please pick another cause than me.

[floridapete]

"I don't take umbridge at the bulk of your comments Bobby. I am sure your friendly foe Peter may but not me."

Hey, Chris, don't involve me in this - I'm just a reader nowadays !

But commiserations to you anyway.

I have a feeling that we may have met some years back - did you ever exhibit at a CFPMA conference one year held at SeaWorld ? I remember meeting a Brit couple back then who were involved in embroidery and promotional items and had a trade exhibit there. What is your trading name ?

[Bobby]

Loser.












I'm only joking. I feel exactly where you are right now. I've been close to it myself and I'm sure we all have on here at one time or another thought 'F*** it. I've had enough"
It does get to you eventually and I think that you highlighting that it's not all plain sailing once you've been here for a few years is commendable.

Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I try to help and often come across as the baddie. My Engrish not doo good. I'm sometimes lacking in subtlety and a bit blunt, even if I do say so myself, but I mean no harm and don't like to see ANYONE upset over this immigration malarkey. Life's short. If I had some of the hurdles or waits that some of you on here have had, I'd have chucked the towel in a long time ago and be relaxing on the beach in Australia right now.
Keep your chin up Chris, I'm on your side.

Cheers,

Bobby

[britcan]

I don't take umbridge at the bulk of your comments Bobby. I am sure your friendly foe Peter may but not me.
First of all I agree that there are many who make the transition successfully and I would not deter anyone from coming simply because it appears not to have worked out for us. Indeed I have made that very same suggestion to DebbieM who has decided to pull out from pursuing her E2. I cannot agree with your 'I bet you boasted about it at the pub'. That smacks of that's what you thought and look at you now. Lets draw a clear distinction between permanent immigration and temporary stay. I did know what I was doing in the first place and knew that the E2 was never going to be 'permanent'. I also believe it should not be easy to get here. A good initial system should and will weed out the week and ill prepared. However, having successfully got through those initial hurdles, life should not become a constant bureaucratic mountain to climb. As a business person you know as well as anyone, that investment is part of planning, its also part of our family lives too. With the amount of uncertainty we have to endure and even with approvals, we are increasingly being time restrained. You cannot plan effectively when all US bureaucracy will allow you is 24 months ahead. With the Florida statute change in Driving Licenses to 12 months, the ability to function will become even more a problem at times. It is ultimately unworkable. That is the main reason for our decision not to inflict pain on ourselves any longer. For those who have big chunks of cash to throw at the situation, I am sure they will be as successful here as they probably were in the UK, the UK will happily allow you to buy your way in to a GC. For those even luckier to have gained GC's for entry by employment, that is even better and their education in the UK has paid them dividends. But there are many, I'm one of them, who had a sizeable chunk of investment, didn't have degrees coming out of my ears, but who had sucessfully started and run their own business in the UK and I like to think has his head screwed on the right way. The E2 is really the only route open to us. I only wanted to chance to do that here without the sort of unnecceasry hurdles we have to put up with.
When I posted out situation last week, I simply wanted to highlight the fact that even after 6 years, trying to make a life here is not easy with the immigration bureaucracy and it is not getting any easier. For many people the hassles have all tended to come out of London. One consequence of that is an increasing number of potential E2'rs have come the B2 convert to E2 route to avoid the London bottleneck. However, it appears that USCIS are now tightening the screws at their end. In the final analysis, both depts utilise the Immigration Act for their decisions, but like so many decisions here, it is subject to personal interpretation by people who ordinarily you probably would not trust to guide you across the road, let alone decide your future.
I applaud all the people who contribute to Foriums such as this one. At least they have taken the view that they can and want to help others. I have mentioned more than once before that many visas holders use the forums to simply get out what they want, but once they have visa in hand they disappear to make their fortune and do not pay back in to the Forum system. That is a 'take, take' mentality which in a way will serve these people well in America, because it in many ways it is increasingly a 'take, take' culture.
I have no intentions whatsoever to get bitter and twisted about our situation, though I am angry. At the end of the day, at this stage all USCIS have asked for is additional information. However, I am wise enough to recognise that the writing is on the wall for us and after putting up with the Americans way of handling immigration, I've had enough and I care more about the well being of my family than a 3000 sq ft house, a gas guzzling car and sun for most of they year.
I do not want, nor will I appreciate anyone starting a crusade on my behalf. There are others who deserve that treatment more and we have made a decision not to stay any longer than is absolutely necessary. Even if we got the extension for 2 years, it would be our last. So anyone who wants to fight for injustice in the immigration system, please pick another cause than me.
Chris- no one is starting a crusade on your behalf.. and you indeed have our empathy for what you and your family are going through. However, we all realise that this could happen to anyone of us in the future and its got to stop now before it gets to be ridiculous. People power should never be underestimated...

[chris]

Bobby & Peter,
Yes Peter, we are that couple you met back in 2000. Our business name is Signature Promotions and we are always grateful to our customers who help make us more than marginal!
At 55 years of age Booby, a lot of water has passed under the bridge and I only occassionally get fired up. Though I do find myself comparing me to Victor Meldrew at times.
I applaud your call it like it is. As someone from Yorkshire (Barnsley), you really can't more unsubtle than that. We spades - bloody shovels.
I am of the opinion that wide ranging change is on its way in US Immigration, irrespective of whether there is an revision to the law. I think what we seeing at present, is the bureacracy using existing legislation and procedures to make life as painfully difficult for us all as possible. It's like being stopped for speeding. The copper can use his discretion/turn a blind eye and let you off with a warning or they can apply the letter of the law/be unbending and stiock you with a ticket. I think that's what is happening nowadays.
Thinking of the Victor Meldrew character, I can just imagine an episode of the show that could show him applying for his E2 to move to the US with his long suffering wife and him dealing with the Embassy and all the trials and tribulations this side of the pond!

[DebbieM]

First of all I agree that there are many who make the transition successfully and I would not deter anyone from coming simply because it appears not to have worked out for us. Indeed I have made that very same suggestion to DebbieM who has decided to pull out from pursuing her E2.

Hi Chris

I think you are confusing me with Emma - I will be persuing a renewal as despite everything I still think this is worth fighting for. We have far too much invested in both time and money to not go the whole nine yards regardless of the outcome. I have two teenage kids who have a life here they would never have in the UK and like you we keep them involved in what is happening.

Holly our eldest is 19 in March and that 21 figure is fast approaching but still I will do everything I have to, to enable her to stay. She has already had one marriage proposal and is going to New Jersey for Thanksgiving to meet the parents of the new boyfriend so fingers crossed! ONLY JOKING.

In defense of Bobby, I can see how his post might smart, but for me it was just putting the other side of the argument forward, making me realize that it is not all bad news, there MUST be some people getting through. You know sometimes the written word doesn't translate the same as if it were spoken.

Maybe in 6 years I might also feel drained and battered by all of this but in 6 years if we all pull together life might, just might be a whole lot better - you just don't know. It was a gamble coming here 2 years ago and lots of my friends, family and work colleagues thought I was barking but even if I had to go back tomorrow I wouldn't regret it, and yes I'd do it all again in a heartbeat - even knowing what I know now but that's just me.

I've done what many people never acheive in a life time and that is to live out a dream. I didn't want to wake up when I'm really old and say 'what if?' My kids are far more rounded individuals as a result of being here, they have experienced more in their short lives (14 & 18) than most their age and from understanding the fight we have on our hands to stay here realize that life 'aint fair and if you want something bad enough then you have to fight for it.

At the end of the day you have to do what is right for you and I think everyone respects that - even though sometimes it may not come out that way.

I think you e-mail was a catalist for many people and hopefully this will produce enough people who are prepared to fight the cause for themselves and each other.

I has certainly made me sit up and think - I'll get off my soap box now.

Debs

[chris]

DebbieM,
So sorry for getting you mixed up with EmmaLee. So many posted on the subject and I siomply got mixed up. I said I was like Victor Meldrew - a senior moment!
You're dead right about the what if. When we left the UK, some of our family remarked that we were terribly brave, we replied either that or terribly naieve. We always said that it was something we wanted to do and if we failed, then at least we could hold our heads up and say we'd tried. No-one can succeed or fail without first trying.
As far as the catalyst is concerned, if my thread achieved something then I'm a happy chappy. I still believe though that the battle for fairer treatment relative to the Treaty of Trade should be fought on 2 fronts - with the US and with the UK. Many already know that the US person who enters the UK on the equivalent Treaty Trader Visa (E2 equiv) gets to convert to LPR after 3 years and UK citizenship if they want it after a further 1 year. By contrast, we get diddly squat. Oh and by the they get their UK driving licence fo at least 10 years - for us it's now 12 months!
That inequality is clearly in violation of the Treaty, if not in the actual words, certainly the spirit. If we cannot get the US to play fair, then we should be pressuring the UK to play dirty and give the US citizens who go to the UK on their E2's a taste of the same medicine. That in itself might make the US review the situation. Even someone as radical as Lou Dobbs might agree that the Yank in Britain has an unfair advantage over the Brit in the US.
I also wonder how Sen Martinez who likes to remind us of his Cuban origins and lack of freedom there, would comment on the pressures and human right issues that we, as legal entrants have to endure in the US? I do find that on human rights, much of what is expounded is based on 'do as I say, not do as I do'.
I would also question from a rights issue how much our rights and treatment are being ignored or even being violated under the US Constitution. At the end of then day, the US Constitution applies to all in this country, not just US citizens.

[Susie]

Loser.












I'm only joking. I feel exactly where you are right now. I've been close to it myself and I'm sure we all have on here at one time or another thought 'F*** it. I've had enough"
It does get to you eventually and I think that you highlighting that it's not all plain sailing once you've been here for a few years is commendable.

Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I try to help and often come across as the baddie. My Engrish not doo good. I'm sometimes lacking in subtlety and a bit blunt, even if I do say so myself, but I mean no harm and don't like to see ANYONE upset over this immigration malarkey. Life's short. If I had some of the hurdles or waits that some of you on here have had, I'd have chucked the towel in a long time ago and be relaxing on the beach in Australia right now.
Keep your chin up Chris, I'm on your side.

Cheers,

Bobby


Hi Bobby,

You nearly gave me a heart attack:angel:


till I read your whole post, thank goodness I can put the tablets away for a while

[Emmalee25]

DebbieM,
So sorry for getting you mixed up with EmmaLee. So many posted on the subject and I siomply got mixed up. I said I was like Victor Meldrew - a senior moment!
You're dead right about the what if. When we left the UK, some of our family remarked that we were terribly brave, we replied either that or terribly naieve. We always said that it was something we wanted to do and if we failed, then at least we could hold our heads up and say we'd tried. No-one can succeed or fail without first trying.
As far as the catalyst is concerned, if my thread achieved something then I'm a happy chappy. I still believe though that the battle for fairer treatment relative to the Treaty of Trade should be fought on 2 fronts - with the US and with the UK. Many already know that the US person who enters the UK on the equivalent Treaty Trader Visa (E2 equiv) gets to convert to LPR after 3 years and UK citizenship if they want it after a further 1 year. By contrast, we get diddly squat. Oh and by the they get their UK driving licence fo at least 10 years - for us it's now 12 months!
That inequality is clearly in violation of the Treaty, if not in the actual words, certainly the spirit. If we cannot get the US to play fair, then we should be pressuring the UK to play dirty and give the US citizens who go to the UK on their E2's a taste of the same medicine. That in itself might make the US review the situation. Even someone as radical as Lou Dobbs might agree that the Yank in Britain has an unfair advantage over the Brit in the US.
I also wonder how Sen Martinez who likes to remind us of his Cuban origins and lack of freedom there, would comment on the pressures and human right issues that we, as legal entrants have to endure in the US? I do find that on human rights, much of what is expounded is based on 'do as I say, not do as I do'.
I would also question from a rights issue how much our rights and treatment are being ignored or even being violated under the US Constitution. At the end of then day, the US Constitution applies to all in this country, not just US citizens.

Chris, I completely agree,
its very unfair how the treaty actually works, Ive been reading as much as poss and it does seem much fairer on paper in my opinion, i think some slippage has happened over the years and no one has noticed, or not spoken up about it. I am still on the same stance that, we are here, have invested, are working, are employing AND are paying taxes!!! What are we doing wrong???
and all the immigrant issues at the mo are aimed at illegals..... makes me sooooo:mad:
em x

[britcan]

Chris, I completely agree,
its very unfair how the treaty actually works, Ive been reading as much as poss and it does seem much fairer on paper in my opinion, i think some slippage has happened over the years and no one has noticed, or not spoken up about it. I am still on the same stance that, we are here, have invested, are working, are employing AND are paying taxes!!! What are we doing wrong???
and all the immigrant issues at the mo are aimed at illegals..... makes me sooooo:mad:
em x
You need to pick oranges and speak Spanish!! Thats why we are trying to get the attention of the media, its the only way to bring the plight of the LEGAL, TAX paying folk in the USA, who are trying to create work for US citizens and the local economy..